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"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is, of course, quite a different thing."
-Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
Placating terrorists, meeting with dictators, compassion for murderers... but no humanity for the unborn... incredible.
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AJAbalahin Profile
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Re: I've just seen it...


OK, y'all! What's "EENS"?

AJ
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Michael D Profile
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Re: I've just seen it...


Extra Ecclesiam Nulla salus.

Outside the Church there is no salvation.

We had a very long discussion about it. Nord expressed admiration for the consistency of the Feeneyites with the traditional Catholic position. The rest of us thought the Church's present understanding was defensible. Nothing much was ever resolved.

emoticon I was fretting when I made this early morning post about the spellling of salus and completely forgot that extra takes the accusative. Edited and corrected. emoticon

Last edited by Michael D, Dec/6/2006, 9:57 pm


---
Nothing by force, but everything by charity.

Ss. Thomas Aquinas and Augustine, pray for us.
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tom7mot Profile
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Re: I've just seen it...


Well said, Michael.

quote:

Nothing much was ever resolved.



The distinction between formal and informal membership in the Catholic Church is what we couldnt resolve for him. Its a paradox, but he sees a contradiction.

Nevertheless, Nord's acceptance of the principle puts him light years closer to the Truth than Trish, Sonny, et al are.
Dec/6/2006, 11:49 am Link to this post Send Email to tom7mot   Send PM to tom7mot
 
nattyjk Profile
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Re: I've just seen it...


Nord is a closet Catholic. emoticon

~ Natalie

---
Holy cow, it's a girl!!!
Dec/6/2006, 11:34 pm Link to this post Send Email to nattyjk   Send PM to nattyjk
 
AJAbalahin Profile
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Re: I've just seen it...


Thanks, everybody.

I was scratching my head wondering whether it was short for some movie.

I am glad to hear you think he was a "closet Catholic." When I was skimming the threads Nord was on, I thought he might be pointing out "contradictions" in Catholic teaching as a way to undermine us or confirm him in keeping from converting.

AJ

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AJAbalahin Profile
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Re: Mary. Is She More Powerful Than Jesus In The Catholic Church?


Hey, everybody,

Above is the title of a thread over at the IMDb site for The Nativity Story.

One comment caught my eye:

quote:

by caschlegel 13 hours ago (Wed Dec 6 2006 08:47:15)

No, Mary had a human father who passed down sin to her, just like our fathers passed sin to us. Sin is passed down through our fathers because Adam knowingly and willfully sinned against God. Jesus was the Only One on this earth Who was ever born without sin as He did not have a human father. He was conceived by God the Holy Spirit. Even Mary knew that she was a sinner and needed a Savior and that was one reason that she was chosen to be the mother of Jesus - her humility.

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AJAbalahin Profile
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Re: Mary. Is She More Powerful Than Jesus In The Catholic Church?


Below is my reply to that post. Is it correct? How can I improve it/make it clearer?

***

caschlegel,

I am just curious: where in the Bible does it say that Original Sin is passed down through the male line alone?

If there is no verse clearly saying so, then whatever tradition of interpreting the Bible you are following is assuming a pre-modern (Aristotelian, I think, i.e. a pagan and unbiblical) idea about human reproduction -- that the man's seed contains the whole human person in embryo and that the woman only provides the "soil."

If humans derive equal portions of their being from both their male and female parents, then how can we say that Original Sin passes only through the male line?

Now, if we accept that the female line trasmits original sin as much as the male line, then even though Jesus had no human father, his human self would have inherited Original Sin from Mary unless she were herself conceived without Original Sin.

The angel addresses Mary as "full of grace," and the purport of the original Greek (kecharitomene, a word applied to no one else in the Bible) is "already filled with grace -- and so full of grace that there is no room for anything that is not grace"). This passage is the biblical foundation for the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception.

Now, there is no salvation other than through the sacrifice of the Cross - what is the sacrifice of the Cross but the expression of God's will to save humankind?

That salvation (earned by the sacrifice that is ever present to God in the timeless Now of his existence) was applied to Mary in a special way at her conception so as to prepare her to carry inside her the Word of God, just as the Ark of the Covenant contained inside it the Word of God.

Just as Jesus is the New Adam, Mary is the New Eve - both the original Eve and the New Eve were born without Original Sin. Both had, nonetheless, the free will to accept or reject God's will. One rejected it, the other accepted it (and was helped to do so by God's grace, a grace that Eve enjoyed no less when she sinned).

In an odd way, to say that God chose Mary to carry Jesus because of her humility makes it sound as if Mary somehow deserved to be the Mother of the Savior, which comes close to saying that she earned her own salvation -- are you saying that?
Dec/7/2006, 2:54 am Link to this post Send Email to AJAbalahin   Send PM to AJAbalahin
 
Michael D Profile
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Re: I've just seen it...


quote:

Nord is a closet Catholic.



Now if we could only get him to admit it to himself.

That is a good reply, AJ. Are you sure you aren't a theologian?

---
Nothing by force, but everything by charity.

Ss. Thomas Aquinas and Augustine, pray for us.
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SHJIHM Profile
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Re: Mary. Is She More Powerful Than Jesus In The Catholic Church?


AJ, that was a great response. It offends me greatly when folks try to preach that Mary, the Mother of God was stained with sin. This in itself shows a complete lack of respect for our Lord. These folks do not understand the great importance of the Old Testament, nor understand what the Ark of the Covenant was or beheld. To accept one and not the other is completely inconsistent and illogical. If God the Father protected His Word in such a fashion, why would the Word Incarnate be born of a woman of sin?!?

The confusion boils down to folks seeing the Immaculate conception as some how making Mary equal to God. We know this of course to be a fallacy.

---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


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tom7mot Profile
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Re: Mary. Is She More Powerful Than Jesus In The Catholic Church?


Its an excellent answer, AJ.

quote:

Just as Jesus is the New Adam, Mary is the New Eve - both the original Eve and the New Eve were born without Original Sin. Both had, nonetheless, the free will to accept or reject God's will. One rejected it, the other accepted it (and was helped to do so by God's grace, a grace that Eve enjoyed no less when she sinned).



Almost a word-for-word quote from St. Irenaeus!



quote:

The confusion boils down to folks seeing the Immaculate conception as some how making Mary equal to God. We know this of course to be a fallacy.



But then, in the same breath, some will tell you that Original Sin isnt Biblical. Meaning they believe in the immaculate conception of everyone!


The Lord God, Creator of the Universe, would not enter this world through a defiled doorway.
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