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Devout Catholic

Registered: 07-2005
Posts: 1370
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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


quote:

I never meant to say that Christ did not give authority to his Apostles to forgive sins. A statement like that would be foolhardy. It is the passing this on to the priests that doesn't make sense to me.



If you believe Christ gave His Apostles the authority to forgive sins, where in Scripture does it state that this authority ended with the Apostles?

quote:

Do you understand how this can be confusing, and how it can be seen in a different light?



Of course. This is why we are discussing the many misconceptions of Catholicsim emoticon

quote:

I get no hint from this of Christ stating that they should appoint others to do as such.



Lauchlin, if the ministry of reconciliation was given to the Apostles, how then does Paul aquire this authority? Paul was NOT an Apostle of Jesus, yet is is PAUL who is forgiving in persona Christi.

quote:

Yes, Christ breathed on them, in similar fashion to God breathing life into Adam. However, did Adam in turn breathe on others, and bring a construct of his own to life?



I pointed out Jesus breathing upon His Apostles to show you that when this occured, great change took place. It is the breathing of God upon man that was important to recognize.

quote:

As for the scripture "As God sends me, so I send you" that states simply, to me, that they were sent to go out and bless people, and forgive their sins, as that is what Christ was talking about at the time.



If you believe this, if you believe God sent His Apostles out to reconcile the world to Himself, why would you believe that this mission would end with the Apostles? Who would reconcile the world to Christ after the Apostles passed on? Where does Scripture tell us that the mission ends with the death of Saint John?

quote:

And when speaking of confessing your sins one to another, this does not identify a specific figure.



Actually it does...again, I refer to the Word of God.

James 5:15-16 -
And the prayer of faith shall save the sick man: and the Lord shall raise him up: and if he be in sins, they shall be forgiven him.
Confess therefore your sins one to another: and pray one for another, that you may be saved. For the continual prayer of a just man availeth much.


In verse 15 we see that sins are forgiven by the priests in the sacrament of the sick. Then in verse 16, James says “Therefore, confess our sins to one another,” in reference to the men referred to in verse 15, the priests of the Church.

quote:

Perhaps it is only because people wish to see it in a different light.



Or perhaps bring folks INTO the light emoticon











Last edited by SHJIHM, Oct/3/2006, 11:51 am


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"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Oct/3/2006, 8:59 am Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
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21 Wherefore of these men who have companied with us all the time that the Lord Jesus came in and went out among us, 22 Beginning from the baptism of John, until the day wherein he was taken up from us, one of these must be made a witness with us of his resurrection. 23 And they appointed two, Joseph, called Barsabas, who was surnamed Justus, and Matthias. 24 And praying, they said: Thou, Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, shew whether of these two thou hast chosen, 25 To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas hath by transgression fallen, that he might go to his own place.

26 And they gave them lots, and the lot fell upon Matthias, and he was numbered with the eleven apostles.


Did Matthias have the authority to forgive sins in the name of Christ? Did the Aposrles not choose a successor to Judas?

Last edited by SHJIHM, Oct/3/2006, 12:11 pm


---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Oct/3/2006, 12:10 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
Lauchlin Profile
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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


Your first comment, on where does it say that the authority ended - that was my point. To me it doesn't say it was meant to continue, nor does it say it was meant to stop. Thus, it makes for confusion in the direct interpretation of the words.

However, when it is stated to confess sins one to another, as well as that the son of man has the power to forgive, these things, to me, state that the Apostles were to show people the way, and that it was not to be passed on to a specific group of people, to be the only ones to have this power, this connection with Christ.

And Paul doing it when he was not an Apostle, I would say, would support this idea, though I know you will bring it back to him being appointed.

And again, with the part about Christ breathing on them, the change ended with the action of God, and did not continue thereafter, save by God's will. Granted, by that same quotient you could say that people can still have children, thus they can indeed 'breathe' life into others, creating NEW life.

I do not think, in truth, that the mission was meant to end, but it does sound to me a bit different then 'you and those you appoint are the only ones that can forgive sins for me'. To me, the focus would seem more to say that, among us, we have the power to approach the throne of God and ask for that forgiveness, and know in our hearts that it is forgiven.

Again, for me it comes down to the possibilities of other reasonable interpretations. If one is keeping the basic tenets of faith the same, and abiding by God's word, are the ceremonies truly so important?

So many questions...
-L
Oct/3/2006, 12:14 pm Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
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quote:

Your first comment, on where does it say that the authority ended - that was my point. To me it doesn't say it was meant to continue, And Paul doing it when he was not an Apostle, I would say, would support this idea, though I know you will bring it back to him being appointed.



Wait...I'm confused. The example I gave regarding Paul is clear evidence that the authority to forgive sins was passed to Paul. Thus Christ's mission was now passed to another. If we are seeing this in Scripture, why would you think that the authority ended at some point? Who ended it? When? Why?

I understand the need for things to make sense to you my friend, but what you are trying to explain to me just does not add up in my humble opinion.

quote:

and that it was not to be passed on to a specific group of people, to be the only ones to have this power, this connection with Christ.



There is no special power posessed by a priest. Your looking at this as a group of folks with a special connection to Christ as opposed to looking at it as what Christ instituted in order to reconcile the world to himself. I am not saying that if I fall on my knees and beg God for mercy and forgiveness, that I am not forgiven. However, by doing so, our sins remain in the dark, and we have not brought them into the light.

quote:

To me, the focus would seem more to say that, among us, we have the power to approach the throne of God and ask for that forgiveness,



This is not the role of the priest. To ask God for forgiveness. This would imply that I am seeking a man to forgive my sins. This would imply the Old covenants way of forgiveness. Catholics do ont seek a man to obsolve them of sin, we seek the God of mercy. We seek to confess BEFORE the almighty God. And to HEAR the words of absolution, which are truly the Words of Christ.

---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Oct/3/2006, 12:28 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
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quote:

To me it doesn't say it was meant to continue, And Paul doing it when he was not an Apostle, I would say, would support this idea, though I know you will bring it back to him being appointed.



If I play devils advocate here, and understand your point, Paul still forgave sins that were confessed to him.

---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Oct/3/2006, 12:34 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


I guess I am still wondering why the priest is still necessary in the forgiveness process... it has ever been a point of confusion.

Is it possible, considering Jesus advocated private prayer, that he wanted the apostles and their delegates, to show the way for the wayward sheep? That they were meant to forgive the sins of those that they brought through to the faith?

After all, it does also say that it is important to confess your sins, one to another - which, in plain english, means to each other, not to a specific figure, and to pray for one another.

So many questions...

-L
Oct/26/2006, 7:39 am Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
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quote:

I guess I am still wondering why the priest is still necessary in the forgiveness process



Why were the Apostles necessary in the forgiveness process?

quote:

After all, it does also say that it is important to confess your sins, one to another - which, in plain english, means to each other, not to a specific figure



Yet Christ gave the authority to forgive sins to specific figures.

---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Oct/26/2006, 8:48 am Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


And, as I said, it sounds more to me that the Apostles were appointed to go out and actively do it - this should not preclude a person approaching the Throne of God in prayer for absolution. You may say that the priest does not forgive the sins, but they are still an intermediary - you have stated that you must confess to a priest to be forgiven. What if a person is trapped on a deserted island, and there is no priest to confess to? Is he not forgiven through his own prayer? Does he go to hell?

He gave them the power to forgive sins and perform miracles, to show the way - this does not mean that this is the context for all. If he were to tell you to go out and feed someone, would this mean that they cannot go out and gather food for themselves? Or that they need you to guide them, once they know how, in how to gather this food?

Just because a person says one thing does not mean that that is the whole story, simply because that is how it is interpreted. The way it is WRITTEN, interpreted in plain English, tells me what I have stated here.

Obviously you will disagree with this, but my point is still logical, and makes sense. AND, it is not meant to invalidate the church, or the role of the Clergy. After all, in times of crisis we all need a push in the right direction, or measured words of wisdom, born of the wish to do good in the world.

Lauchlin
Oct/26/2006, 9:05 am Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
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Devout Catholic

Registered: 07-2005
Posts: 1370
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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


quote:

And, as I said, it sounds more to me that the Apostles were appointed to go out and actively do it - this should not preclude a person approaching the Throne of God in prayer for absolution.



Well of course not. A person may of course approach God and ask for absolution. You are focusing on confessing as opposed to what confession bestows upon the soul. However, the norm would be to confess our sins to somebody. That somebody was breathed upon by Christ and given authority to forgive sins in His name. The Apostles did not go from town to town preaching forgiveness in private prayer. They forgave sins personally, and passed this authority to their successors, as we see in Paul. Who forgave in persona Christi.

quote:

You may say that the priest does not forgive the sins, but they are still an intermediary - you have stated that you must confess to a priest to be forgiven.



No Lauchlin, I have said that confessing our sins to God requires his earthly representative. As Jesus set forth. It is not a priest we seek in confession, but the God of Mercy. It is God forgiving us thru His priest.

quote:

What if a person is trapped on a deserted island, and there is no priest to confess to? Is he not forgiven through his own prayer? Does he go to hell?



I would think not my friend. Extrodinary situation though, don't you think?

quote:

He gave them the power to forgive sins and perform miracles, to show the way - this does not mean that this is the context for all.



Where does Jesus give authority to forgive sins to everyone? Where does Jesus teach that forgivness can come by private prayer?

quote:

If he were to tell you to go out and feed someone, would this mean that they cannot go out and gather food for themselves? Or that they need you to guide them, once they know how, in how to gather this food?



It appears to me that you are concentrating on the act of doing, as opposed to what the sacrament bestows upon the soul. When we feel compelled to visit Jesus in this sacrament, we are looking to be reconciled with God. It is the reconciliation that is important. Not what we confess.

quote:

Just because a person says one thing does not mean that that is the whole story, simply because that is how it is interpreted. The way it is WRITTEN, interpreted in plain English, tells me what I have stated here.



I understand your point in this matter. However, the way it is WRITTEN, in plain English confirms for me all I have said. Not to mention 2000 years of Tradition. It is quite difficult to grasp how folks seem to believe that they got it right 2000 years after the Apostles.

quote:

but my point is still logical, and makes sense.



I can't agree with you here, but I certainly respect your belief.

 





---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Oct/26/2006, 9:30 am Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


Maybe my point in another thread about learning aramaic, to try and remove some of the ambiguity bred into the English language, is not such a bad idea after all...

As for your comment of a priest as the Earthly representative of Christ, that makes it sound like, as I said, the intermediary IS required to be forgiven by Christ...

One more comment - on the topic of doing something for 2000 years, and then finding out it is wrong - is the earth still flat? Does the sun revolve around us?

And you will likely bring up the fact that those were inferences made by man, not commandments laid down by God, but much of what you are talking about is not the word of God, it is the word of the Disciples of Christ, who were fallible human beings. Maybe I am wrong with my ideas. I just think that it seems kind of simplistic to base the way one is forgiven on a ceremony.

Is it a way of showing your conviction to God, that you want to be saved? Is it approaching it in a certain way, so that God will see that you are truly willing to move and do and sacrifice?

It kind of strikes me as reasonable, in that respect, but God is supposed to know us inside and out, as it is. The scenario here makes me feel like it is an earthly relationship, a la the movie 10 Things I Hate About You, where Heath Ledger decides to get up and sing, as embarassing as it could have been to stand up in front of all those people, in order to convince the Shrew that he truly did love her...

I dunno...

Lauchlin
Oct/26/2006, 10:00 am Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 


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