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"‘Tonight, in the city of David, a Savior is born, 'tis Christ the Lord.'"

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is, of course, quite a different thing."
-Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
Placating terrorists, meeting with dictators, compassion for murderers... but no humanity for the unborn... incredible.
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Lauchlin Profile
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Re: Senator Claire McCaskill Uninvited To Speak At Local Graduation


No harm done, Nat, and I am sorry if my comments came off in a similar tone.

I understand your outlook here. The problem arises not with us, but with the legal definitions. Abortion is not legally murder, and that legallity is not based on religious views. Thus, I feel that I can be against it all from a religious stance, but not from a political stance.

When we start defining right and wrong for a nation, we have to take all citizens beliefs into consideration. While I abhor the very idea of abortion, the source of that abhorrence is based on my belief that, through God, life begins at conception, as two souls merge to become one, and finally three - interesting that the trinity arrives even here...

Perhaps my problem is my ability to see the pain on both sides of the equation. Alas, We can call them sinners, but not criminals.

Your point about serving two masters is quite apt. It is not a healthy situation to be in. In trying to do so, as we see here, you shame the one or neglect the other.

Until we can prove, unequivocally, that a soul exists, without relying on faith, we will not be able to convince the world that abortion is truly wrong.

I would say that there are absolutes, but that the true absolutes can be believed in, but that many are not on a level that we can comprehend. But then, there is no absolute here, either. If the options are abortion, or both mother and child dying, what does one do? Let them both die, when it didn't have to be? This could be argued effectively either way.

In faith, there can be no absolutes, as faith is based on no substantial proof. If it were provable, it wouldn't be faith, it would be knowledge.

Being pro-choice, though, as far as I am concerned, is accepting the fact that my beliefs, or yours, dictate to me what is right and wrong, but those beliefs have no jurisdiction over anyone else. That is why we were given free will. Either they will reach heaven, or they won't. I can try to influence, and discuss, but it is not for me to judge them. There is someone better and wiser than me in control of that.

I would agree heavily, though, that there are too many fair-weather Christians...

Tony,

How can we answer that truthfully...? We can answer with our own truth, but how does one truly know the mind of God? I believe that God would not support the idea of abortion, save to sustain life, when the only other option is loss of all life.

As for your double edged sword, I agree wholeheartedly. But what we forget is that not all people share belief in our God. God himself gave them that right, though the consequences do follow.

I believe my problem with this is more the fact that free will was God's first gift to mankind, and bullying people by whatever means tends to circumvent that. If I am given no other option but to be good, then do I truly deserve salvation...? If all I know is Jesus, and have not chosen him against all others through conscious knowledge, was it truly a choice...?

Lauchlin
May/2/2007, 2:13 pm Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
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Senator Claire McCaskill Uninvited To Speak At Local Graduation


quote:

save to sustain life



It is not life in this world we should be concerned with. For if we love our life here, we will surely lose our life in the here after.

Jesus said....There is no greater love than to lay down ones life for a friend.

quote:

But what we forget is that not all people share belief in our God.



I honestly do not believe that one needs God in order to understand how evil abortion is. All we have done as a society is define the child as a fetus in order to kill it. Much easier to kill a fetus than an actual child.

quote:

God himself gave them that right, though the consequences do follow.



Yes, we have the free will to deny God. But as children of God, we have been entrusted to continue Jesus' mission. Salvation comes thru Christ, and no amount of denial can change that.



---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


May/2/2007, 3:09 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
tom7mot Profile
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Re: Senator Claire McCaskill Uninvited To Speak At Local Graduation


quote:

I know that, given that not all people believe as I do that I cannot tell them what they can and cannot do.



Ok, I want to own slaves. Who are you to tell me I cant?


Abortion is practically the SAME problem all over again. Africans were transported here against their will and subsequently sold into slavery because the consensus of the age was that black people are NOT persons. Therefore they had no legal rights. They were seen as merely property; something to be kept or disposed of as the owner wished. In retrospect it seems barbaric to us, but at the time nobody gave it a second thought - until the American Christian Churches stepped in. Thats where the abolition movement began.

Same goes for the unborn in our own age. They can be treated as a THING, a piece of property to be kept or disposed of as the mother wishes because they are NOT viewed as a PERSON - something which they manifestly ARE. What else can they be??

When the consensus of the age changes to finally recognize the personhood of every unborn child - something the Catholic Church along with many Christian denominations has always advocated - then abortion will go the way of slavery.

The only difference between slavery and abortion is that the slaves can always be set free. Aborted babies are gone forever.

May/2/2007, 3:39 pm Link to this post Send Email to tom7mot   Send PM to tom7mot
 
Lauchlin Profile
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Re: Senator Claire McCaskill Uninvited To Speak At Local Graduation


Tony,

I hope you are not saying that it is sinful to love life. That statement, particularly from you is kind of disheartening... why would God give us the gift of life, if not to enjoy what it has to offer, without harming others?

Your next comment, about laying down one's life for a friend, tends to state that preservation of life, where possible, is a good idea. This, to me, says that in those select circumstances one should err on saving as much life as possible - so given the choice of one saved or none, you choose the one.

A very important point, as well, about the definition of a child as a fetus, in order to dehumanize it. The fact of the matter is, some believe that until a child can live outside the womb, it is not a child. Thus the seeming 'happy medium' as unhappy as it is, is set at the 6 week marker, or thereabouts, I believe.

Thus, it is my belief that they don't see it as killing a child. Further to that, in many cases, they likely see it as a mercy killing, as they feel they will not be able to care for the child properly. Granted, I would state that that is merely avoidance of responsibility, and using the excuses available to make one's own life easier.

Salvation comes through Christ, but must you fully understand the weight of that choice? It is so much easier for a child brought up with Christ to stay the path, than it is for someone brought up under another faith to come into the fold. One of the great injustices of life and religion. To any other faith, the view is pretty much the same. "Why don't the Christians believe as we? We should save them from there heretic ways."

Tom,

Though I agree with your view, I must ask you a question - when you bring forth such ideas, do you realize the impression that is given? And thereby do you realize why those going to abortion clinics do not respond to the screams of 'baby-killer' and 'you are going to rot in hell for this'?

I think you misunderstand what I mean, though. I am not saying that I can do nothing - I am saying that I cannot, with any authority, tell them they are wrong. If one does not believe in God, where does your derived authority go? Where do your definitions of good and evil go? Out the window. I will speak out against abortion and try to convince them of the fact that abortion makes one feel bad for a reason. However, I will not resort to bullying. I also will not turn my back on those people just because they will not listen. My door is always opened.

Perhaps a better approach, instead of guaranteeing people salvation, and telling the rest to come back when they have ceased sinning, tell them that they are welcome in the Lord's house, but that they cannot be guaranteed salvation by this faith, until they cast those things aside.

As I mentioned above to Tony, most people who have abortions aren't thinking of the things you speak, and would be offended at the implications - most see it more as a mercy killing. Though, again, as stated, I see that as avoidance of responsibility.

Lauchlin

May/3/2007, 12:06 pm Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
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Re: Senator Claire McCaskill Uninvited To Speak At Local Graduation


quote:

I hope you are not saying that it is sinful to love life. That statement, particularly from you is kind of disheartening... why would God give us the gift of life, if not to enjoy what it has to offer, without harming others?



WHOEVER FINDS HIS LIFE WILL LOSE IT, AND WHOEVER LOSES HIS LIFE FOR MY SAKE WILL FIND IT.

No my friend, I was not conveying that one should not love life in the sense of life itself. I was speaking to those comforts of life that seemingly shackle us to this world. If we love these things about life, we will surely lose it.

---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


May/3/2007, 2:53 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
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Re: Senator Claire McCaskill Uninvited To Speak At Local Graduation


quote:

The fact of the matter is, some believe that until a child can live outside the womb, it is not a child.



Quite simple then to extinguish it's existence then.

What does a heart beat describe if not life?
What do living cells describe if not life?
What exactly do sperm and an egg create if not life?

How does one create a child?

---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


May/3/2007, 2:57 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
tom7mot Profile
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Re: Senator Claire McCaskill Uninvited To Speak At Local Graduation


I see your point in that last post, Lauchlin, and I agree that women who are considering an abortion arent going to think about that stuff.

But, we're thinking about it.

All Idid was respond to your idea that its improper for you to tell someone else not to do something you think is morally abhorent. If the abolishionists had followed that advice where would we be? Do we even try to think about proving that black people are persons now, or is it self-evident?

The people who believe that until a child can live outside the womb it is not a child are doing the SAME thing the slaveowners did. They are reserving the right to do something evil because it serves a larger, SELFISH purpose. They are IGNORING something that is self-evident because it doesnt suit their own needs.

Here is a PROOF, based on arguments from natural philosophy, that the unborn are PERSONS. It is NOT based on religious beliefs or on any Catholic dogma.

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/abortion/ab0045.html

May/3/2007, 4:36 pm Link to this post Send Email to tom7mot   Send PM to tom7mot
 
nattyjk Profile
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Re: Senator Claire McCaskill Uninvited To Speak At Local Graduation


quote:

I hope you are not saying that it is sinful to love life. That statement, particularly from you is kind of disheartening... why would God give us the gift of life, if not to enjoy what it has to offer, without harming others?


Tony explained his comment, but I'd like to expand on it a bit. When we love the things of this world so much that it draws us away from God, it is sinful, and we may lose our souls for it. It doesn't mean we can't love our earthly life, it means we can't love it too much. emoticon

quote:

Thus, it is my belief that they don't see it as killing a child. Further to that, in many cases, they likely see it as a mercy killing, as they feel they will not be able to care for the child properly.


I don't think anyone is denying that some of those who support abortion feel this way. But as I said before, it does not matter. Whether one does not believe in God, or whether one believes abortion is okay, for whatever reason, is really irrelevent. God's laws do not cease to be binding just because someone rejects them.

quote:

And thereby do you realize why those going to abortion clinics do not respond to the screams of 'baby-killer' and 'you are going to rot in hell for this'?


No one is saying that everyone goes about trying to convey the pro-life message in the right way. Indeed, those that do such things usually do more harm to the movement than good. But that is a flaw in execution, not in the position itself. I haven't picketed an abortion clinic in many years, but I know others who have. My sister just went right before Easter, something she has been doing every year for awhile now. This particular group of people simply stand there, some with signs (nothing vulgar or degrading), and they pray the rosary. That's it. And they do this late at night, not during normal hours when women are coming and going. Yet, there is still quite the backlash of all manner of filth and obsenity screamed at them from passing cars. So, sometimes it doesn't really matter much how you deliver the message. It's the message itself they don't want to hear.

quote:

I am not saying that I can do nothing -I am saying that I cannot, with any authority, tell them they are wrong. If one does not believe in God, where does your derived authority go? Where do your definitions of good and evil go? Out the window.


Again, it does not matter. Either you believe in God and His laws, and that ALL must obey them, or you don't. When Jesus sent forth the Apostles to preach, He told them to go forth and teach the world whatsoever He had commanded them. He did not qualify that by saying that they should only teach those who would believe and leave the others alone. You can say they are wrong because they ARE wrong, or what does your faith really mean?

quote:

Perhaps a better approach, instead of guaranteeing people salvation, and telling the rest to come back when they have ceased sinning, tell them that they are welcome in the Lord's house, but that they cannot be guaranteed salvation by this faith, until they cast those things aside.


An old misconception seems to be rearing its ugly head here again. The Catholic Church does not "guarantee" salvation. It's so odd to me that this keeps being perpetuated when Catholics claim the least certainty about salvation of any Christian religion I can think of. In some, you can just "get saved" at some moment in time and whatever you do from there on out doesn't matter. You're heaven-bound! Others simply believe that if you believe in God and are a "good" person, off you go into the clouds. The Church doesn't teach this way, and I think we have discussed this before.

Claire McCaskill wasn't being asked not to attend a Mass or threatened with excommunication, she was asked not to speak at a graduation. There is a difference. (Though if she did attend Mass, she could be refused Communion for the same reasons. But this is in line with what you suggest.) We must also recall the Lord's own strong words in Matthew 18:17: And if he will not hear them: tell the church. And if he will not hear the church, let him be to thee as the heathen and publican. Where would we be if we were never allowed to use certain situations to set an example for others? (I have 3 little boys and I'm pretty sure my house would have imploded by now! emoticon)

Of course we know we cannot force anyone to believe anything. But what if the Apostles had not preached to the world because some would not believe?

~ Natalie

---
Holy cow, it's a girl!!!
May/3/2007, 11:05 pm Link to this post Send Email to nattyjk   Send PM to nattyjk
 
Lauchlin Profile
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Re: Senator Claire McCaskill Uninvited To Speak At Local Graduation


Tony,

I rather like your mentality on the life issue, and how it lines up with Nat's. Focus not so much effort on the comforts of life, for they shall blind you to the true gift that life is.

Which is likely why some people think abortion is okay. They have been blinded to the blessing that a child truly is.

Tom,

Thank you for your input. I still see a few problems with your comparison. First and foremost being that a black person still has full human form and function, and is capable of all things that a white man is. You can paint a man purple, and he is still the same inside.

I totally agree that the life factor seems self evident, and as stated, I can never agree with their standpoints. I do understand them, and see them as defensible from a non-religious stand point. And it makes it that much worse, as I can see how easy it is to beguile people with these elements of convenience, and supposed good intentions. In truth, I wish there was a way to show the brain waves of a fetus, to show that a child actually is thinking, or something.

Nat,

As I said to Tony, I am glad that the life point is clarified, and I enjoy the outlook.

As for the binding power of God's word, this is not the issue. Their disbelief means they will not listen, implying a different approach is required. I think that by proving that the rules make sense, in real life scenarios, and then demonstrating that these are the rules that God advocates, is the strongest approach to such matters... you kind of pretend to play their game, only to have them realize that their game is just a small corner of yours.

As for your points on teaching the world, I believe that it is important to try and spread the word - however, if you know anything about teaching, there are many different approaches to instruction, and a whole spectrum of forms of expression to be used as tools to forward those goals. At times I think the Church has lost sight of this. The message is what is important, isn't it...? Isn't that why Jesus spoke in parables? To share the word in a way that people understand? In a way that makes sense to them in the real world, as they find it so hard to just take it for granted that they should do something.

I do not believe in 'setting examples' in this way. I believe in having rules, and holding fast to them in any situation. One of the things I believe is that the message of Christ, if shown in the right way, stands against all other reason and logic.

As far as I am concerned, showing people that Jesus' ideas make sense logically is just strengthening the greater truth...

Lauchlin
May/4/2007, 7:58 am Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
tom7mot Profile
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Re: Senator Claire McCaskill Uninvited To Speak At Local Graduation


quote:

First and foremost being that a black person still has full human form and function, and is capable of all things that a white man is. You can paint a man purple, and he is still the same inside.



This is obvious to us NOW, but if you had said this in the public square in Savannah, Georgia in the 1850's you would have been put in prison.


quote:

As far as I am concerned, showing people that Jesus' ideas make sense logically is just strengthening the greater truth...



I like that, Lauchlin. I like that a LOT.


One of the things we may have missed sight of here is that 'spreading the word' verbally is only ONE way of showing others the path to Jesus, and it is the least powerful way.

The MOST powerful way is to LIVE the word.

The Catholic Church would have an ocean of moral authority if there werent so many of its so-called 'members', prominent and otherwise, who call themselves Catholic (like Claire McCaskill) but who really are not. The Catholic Church needs to have its house in order before it can advocate to those outside its fold that its beliefs are correct. Claire McCaskill isnt living the word. She's paying lip service to it. Maybe this episode will remind her of that. This is Catholic housecleaning, and its about time.


Last edited by tom7mot, May/4/2007, 10:54 am
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