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"‘Tonight, in the city of David, a Savior is born, 'tis Christ the Lord.'"

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is, of course, quite a different thing."
-Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
Placating terrorists, meeting with dictators, compassion for murderers... but no humanity for the unborn... incredible.
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SHJIHM Profile
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Devout Catholic

Registered: 07-2005
Posts: 1370
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Something to view.....


Here is a link to a thread on a forum I frequent.

It involves the debate on abortion.

http://resinilluminati.com/showthread.php?t=3866

I would be really interested in your views.

---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Sep/3/2008, 11:31 am Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
Michael D Profile
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Peacemaker

Registered: 09-2005
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Re: Something to view.....


When I clicked on the link it asked me to register.

---
Nothing by force, but everything by charity.

Ss. Thomas Aquinas and Augustine, pray for us.
Sep/3/2008, 11:37 am Link to this post Send Email to Michael D   Send PM to Michael D
 
SHJIHM Profile
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Devout Catholic

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Re: Something to view.....


Dang it...

Last edited by SHJIHM, Sep/3/2008, 11:55 am


---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Sep/3/2008, 11:54 am Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
Michael D Profile
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Peacemaker

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Re: Something to view.....


quote:

The administrator may have required you to register before you can view this page.



Can you paste some of it here? My curiosity is up now.

---
Nothing by force, but everything by charity.

Ss. Thomas Aquinas and Augustine, pray for us.
Sep/3/2008, 12:16 pm Link to this post Send Email to Michael D   Send PM to Michael D
 
SHJIHM Profile
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Devout Catholic

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Re: Something to view.....


It starts with my reply...


But I don't really believe that it's life until the child is born

I'll tell you why I disagree with this statement.

A heart beat can be heard only after 22 days of conception.

What is that heart doing?

We as a society have grown comfortable with placing the term fetus, or embryo, or cells on what is only simply life.

Pro choice should begin with the folks who decide to engage in sexual activity. The problem today is that we are a society who wishes to have instant gratification without the thought of any consequences. A teenage child who engages in sexual activity has an out with her right to have an abortion. No discussion of the teenage girl who's poor judgment and CHOICE led to this pregnancy.

Is it life only when 2 people decide to have children?

If so, why then is it not considered life when an unwanted pregnancy occurs?

Because then the life is simply considered an embryo, or fetus.

Much easier to destroy a fetus or embryo than a human life.

A human life who has no protection, nor asked to be created.


RESPONSE:
Moving blood around. There is no person there just because there is a heartbeat. Ask a developmental psychologist when the human brain has matured enough to be capable of self awareness. It's between one and two years old. That is when a baby truly becomes a sentient person. 22 days, no sentience, no human.

A fetus or embryo is not equal to a child. And I'll prove it to you...

You are visiting a fertility clinic when a fire breaks out. You hear muffled sounds of screaming and follow them. You open a door to find a room filled with smoke and fire. A small child cries in one corner, in another corner is a tray of ten fertilized human embryos. You know that you can only reach one of them before you are overcome by smoke inhalation. Do you grab the tray of microscopic embryos, or do you grab the fully formed, terrified child?

If we were to believe pro-life arguments of life beginning at conception, you would leave the single child to save the ten embryos. I don't want to know the person who makes that choice.

The answer, if you have any moral sense at all, is the single child. Because you know in your heart that a real child is more important than ten sets of undifferentiated cells that can hardly be seen with the naked eye. The real child is more important than ten, or a hundred, or a thousand embryos. How many embryos would there have to be before they outweigh the child?

So since it's now obvious that an embryo is less that a child and therefore less than a human being, how can terminating it be murder?


---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Sep/3/2008, 12:36 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
SHJIHM Profile
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Devout Catholic

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Re: Something to view.....


MY REPLY:

And in a nutshell, here is the inherent problem. We have folks who have determined when sentience begins, and when it is right to consider a bunch of cells, a human. The morality of abortion hinges entirely on whether one believes a fetus to be sentient. And unfortunately, self-awareness is the defining characteristic of all life that deserves protection.

Unfortunately, this belief does not require one to care about a creature’s capability to experience pain. Life on this planet would include all of our plants and tree's and insects. Yet no one would worry about a tree feeling pain when we prune its branches. No one has any moral issues about stomping on an insect.

My point is that it seems that humans have accepted that there is the need to sometimes kill or alter life for their own purpose and convenience.

It is FACT that a fetus with trillions of cells begins to become aware of its environment. Its heart beats, it begins to suck its thumb, it drinks amniotic fluid, it responds to light, and external touch. Anyone who has seen the film “The silent scream” knows that a human being is being killed. Anyone who is not horrified and outraged after seeing photos of abortion is a monster.

Equality. How ironic that you would use those words. Many years ago, Jews were not considered equal to Germans. Many years ago, African Americans were not considered equal to Caucasians. The list goes on, and in each belief, the solution was to exterminate those that did not measure up to our idea of equality.

Your story you offered as proof has no merit Pat. You can insert anything in place of the embryos. All you have established is that in such an extreme circumstance. I have a choice. Perhaps instead of the embryo's, there was a wounded parent who I could not drag out. Perhaps, there was a wounded animal, or perhaps a very frightened individual?

Your story has little to do with life but with choice. Just because I choose to save the child, does not mean I will not MOURN the death of those embryo's. That is what you completely missed.

Whole generations of people were extinguished by such beliefs.

What is obvious Pat is that at some point between conception and 8-12 weeks, it’s pretty clear that some kind of sentience begins. And in all these discussions, it should be clear that we are speaking of LIFE. And not when that life appears human, or appears to have sentience, or when that life is no longer convenient for us to murder.


HIS REPLY:
Then you should leave the child. 10 lives vs 1 life shouldn't be a hard choice. The fact that even you would grab the kid answers the question of which is more important. Fight it all you want, you're making the right choice.

And can we please stop referring to abortion as murder, at least in the first trimester? Unless you also want to argue that women who have first trimester abortions be charged with homicide and imprisoned like others murderers, using that word is more that a little theatrical.


---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Sep/3/2008, 12:39 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
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Devout Catholic

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Re: Something to view.....


HIS REPLY:
I see the embryo as something other that a full fledged human life. There is a big difference between that and not seeing it as life at all.

And please, there is no equivalency between supporting a woman's right to choose and the holocaust of Jews, Gypsies, and homosexuals perpetrated by the Nazi's. There is ZERO chance of anyone coming out and arguing that we should purge the world of the inferior fetus race and them launch a campaign of mandatory abortions. Pretending as though these two things are similar does no service to your argument.

And again, the fact you are choosing her when you could just as easily save ten others, you are necessarily placing ten times more value on her life. I am not making this distinction, you are making it for me, whether you are prepared to admit it or not.

You're not slipping out of this. Do you support murder charges for women who have abortions or not? If you do, then come out and say it. If you don't, then you have to concede that abortion and murder are not moral equivalents based on your belief they should have different punishments. Anything else is inconsistent. You can't have it both ways.



MY REPLY
Actually there is. Because you are debating equality. All life is equal, no matter what stage it is in. think it quite appropriate to point out the similarities. Although I may not believe that all embryo's will be targeted for extinction, one can hardly dismiss the similar thinking a few figures of history held, and where those beliefs led.

And as I have already stated. I believe the embryo's to be equal to the child's life. I am not placing any more importance on the child's life by choosing to save her. You are doing so, and then projecting that misunderstanding upon me. Had I said I would choose the embryo's, you would consider me a monster. I am not placing ten times more value on her life. I am simply making a choice to save LIFE. I could just as easily choose the embryo's.

In my opinion, it is murder. Thus women should be held accountable for such a choice. Just as those who would murder a pregnant woman are charged with double homicide.

I find it highly ironic that the same folks who want to give a woman the right for an abortion would condemn women for smoking and drinking and fight what was her 'choice', clearly affecting her own body.



Now, tell me.....we currently possess the technology and understanding to be able to care and nourish early premature infants even into the second trimester. And people easily agree that this premature life has rights.

Yet across town, another same gestational age infant is snatched form her mothers womb in a horrific manner.

Where do we draw the line?







---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Sep/3/2008, 12:42 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
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Re: Something to view.....


HIS REPLY
If the woman's choice is to carry the baby to term, then it is irresponsible of her to drink and smoke and do other things that risk permanently damaging the child.


MY REPLY
Exactly my point of which unfortunately, you now have misunderstood.

I find it ironic that there are people who will fight to term LIFE as nothing more than a bunch of cells when it is convenient to abort, but then scold a woman for drinking and smoking during a pregnancy. After all, such acts are the CHOICES of the woman used on HER body. To support one choice while condemning another is inconsistent.

And your speaking of permanently damaging the child? What could be more damaging then choosing to abort? Why is it a child now if the woman chooses to go to term? You are displaying the inherit problem in the world today. Use of convenient terms to justify ones actions.

It also comes down to responsibility. You like to talk a lot about responsibility Pat. Your actions are your responsibility. If you choose to have sex, know the possible consequences and be prepared to take responsibility for them.

I will not apologize for the above picture.

This is Sara. And Sara could not protect herself when the doctor ripped her head off with forceps. Sara will never be able to skip rope, have sleep overs, or play games. Sara will never experience her first date,her first kiss, or prom. She has been denied the right to vote, her freedom of speech, and the right to work.

It has been said here that we are not killing anything human. So what are we killing? Does the embryo have DNA? A resounding YES. The DNA at 5 minutes after conception is the same DNA 85 years after conception. The color of the hair, eyes, and even personality traits are stamped in the genetic code at conception.

What kind of DNA is it? It is HUMAN DNA.

Is it growing? Yes. So it is alive.

It is self directed.

These are all facts, not opinions.

It is a a human being that is being killed no matter which term you wish to apply to the child.



"........The common outcry, which is justly made on behalf of human rights -- for example, the right to health, to home, to work, to family, to culture -- is false and illusory if the right to life is not defended with maximum determination."
-Pope John Paul II

---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Sep/3/2008, 12:43 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
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Re: Something to view.....


HIS REPLY
f she chooses to terminate the pregnancy, that is a choice she is making about her body, and likely about the rest of her family. If, however, she decides to carry to term, she has decided to take responsibility for both her own body and the health of her future child's body. It isn't a child now, it's still an embryo, or fetus. It will be a child eventually if all goes well. So if she decides to go to term, she needs to act like it's going to be a child.

People no more choose to have sex then they choose to sleep, breath, or eat and drink. It is one of our four most basic and powerful instinctual and emotional drives. Expecting people to only have sex when actively trying to have a child is delusional.

One of the possible consequences of having sex is to be put in the very difficult position of deciding between keeping the child, putting it up for adoption, or aborting the pregnancy. That choice is not one for you or me to make for another. Just having to go through that process, regardless of which decision they make, is taking enough responsibility for me.

And who named her Sara? Did Sara know her name? Did she think? Did she have human emotions? Did she worry about her future? Humanity is not contained in a conveniently placed name.

[I BOLDED THIS TEXT]

The possession of human DNA does not a human make. My wife's tonsils had human DNA, their genetic code had all of her genetic traits stamped into them to. Yet no one was protesting the ear-nose-and-throat doctor's office when they were removed. A cancer tumor shares all those traits, human DNA, growing, self directed, yet undeniably not human. Being a human is about more than the blueprints and scaffolding. It is about consciousness, emotions, things "Sara" didn't have yet. She may have been a developing human body, but that doesn't make her a human being.

Potential to become a human being in the future, sure. But a human being right now? No.

All that being said, I think you need to understand the distinction between pro-choice and pro-abortion. I personally wouldn't choose to abort were I to be female and pregnant. However I think that such weighty decisions are hard enough without unrequested interference from those who want to force their morals onto everyone else. If someone else in their own unique situation came to a different conclusion from me on such a personal decision, I don't think it's my right to interfere with that process. It think you will find many if not most pro-choice people are of a similar mindset.

MY REPLY
Wow....just....wow Pat. I now understand your position much better. I am however deeply saddened by this understanding. In one foul swoop, weather you wish to admit it or not, you have invalidated all this child was to be. You have erased her simply because you feel as if she had no knowledge of her name, or was not self aware, or did not have emotion, nor any worries. You erased her because humanity is not contained in a name.

Well, her name was Sara, and Sara was life. Brimming with opportunity. She was a baby girl who could react to external stimuli and above all....experience pain. And then whose life was horrifically ended for a myriad of reasons. She depended on her mommy and daddy to protect her, to keep her safe.

In the wake of my situation in adopting a child, I can not fathom all the little lives who have been aborted who will never have the opportunities you and I have simply because a choice was made to give birth to us.





---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Sep/3/2008, 12:46 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
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Devout Catholic

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Re: Something to view.....


HIS REPLY:
You cannot erase a blank sheet. Reacting to external stimuli and an experience of pain is all it takes to qualify as human? If that's the case, my KFC dinner last night was human. Pain and reaction to one's environment are traits shared by almost every vertebrate animal, they are not defining characteristics of human beings. No, emotion, consciousness, hope, those are human traits above all.

I now understand your position much better as well. Maybe that of most of the pro-life movement. You don't see, or choose to ignore, the distinction between a human body and a human being.

A brain dead man on life support machines is a human body but no longer a human being. I also think that a first trimester fetus is a human body, but not yet a human being. However, a being requires a body, that doesn't mean a body is a being. You can indeed have one without the other.


MY REPLY:
And you proceed from the assumption that life can be conveniently discarded or ignored when certain of your criteria are not met.

I have only ever argued for LIFE. It is a shame this simple point has been so horribly misunderstood.

Being human is much more than that. And what makes us human is much more than that.

And here you said my earlier comparisons to figures of history were without merit. Yet here you are standing before me telling me and the world that to be a human being, one must meet a set of criteria. That sounds awfully familiar.


---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Sep/3/2008, 12:47 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 


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