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Devout Catholic

Registered: 07-2005
Posts: 1370
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How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


Here is an excellent website to browse and read when time is had.

How Do We Know?


Last edited by SHJIHM, Sep/7/2005, 2:51 pm


---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Sep/7/2005, 2:50 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
Lauchlin Profile
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


When time is had is right...

In a nutshell this site, for the most part, seems to say that the Catholic church is the church which Jesus built because it is. The only valid point, really, is the age of the church.

It is quite clear that this site was built as reassurance to Catholics as opposed to being anything meant to bring others to these conclusions. I am really sorry, but that is what it is.

By this site it actually states not to believe what the Bible says, and listen to the Church. That isn't always the best. I think that people concentrate too much on the establishment of the church, and forget about the spirit... the establishment is human, the spirit, obviously, is not.

An important point to look at, I think, is the point about Christ pointing out that he was going to build his church on this 'rock'. Masculine or feminine it works... the masculine actually works better, as it speaks of a pebble. Christ goes on to state that it is like the mustard seed he spoke of before, branching out into a huge tree - also linked to his comments about faith the size of a mustard seed.

What does this say to me?

Quite simply, the rock that the church was built on could be the FAITH of Peter, as opposed to the interpretation of Christ as him being the pillar of the church. Through his faith, and those like him, faith would grow and save people. This is how it makes sense to me, though I think I need to refine it a bit...

Comments?

Lauchlin
Aug/28/2006, 1:43 pm Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
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Devout Catholic

Registered: 07-2005
Posts: 1370
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


quote:

By this site it actually states not to believe what the Bible says, and listen to the Church.



Lauchlin, no where does it state in that website that one is not to adhere to Gods Word. It simply states truthfully that it is the Church that is the pillar and foundation of the Truth.

1 TIM 3:15
But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and ground of the truth.

quote:

It is quite clear that this site was built as reassurance to Catholics as opposed to being anything meant to bring others to these conclusions.



In each point, the site refers to Scripture, and points out said Scripture. I do not need reassurance from my Church, I need only look upon God's Word.

quote:

the masculine actually works better, as it speaks of a pebble.



This is Incorrect as the site points out. The Gospel of Matthew was not written in Greek, but Aramaic. The word used to describe Peter is KEPHAS, which literally means a large massive stone or rock. Interestingly enough, where Christ said this is just as important. Christ said this at Caesarea Philippi, the site of a large rock mass.

Therefore, in Matthew 16:18, it is correct to say that Jesus said, "You are 'Kepha', and upon this 'Kepha', I will build My Church.....or "You are ROCK, and upon this ROCK I will build my Church."

Consider as well, that when Jesus asked the apostles whom do YOU say I am, Peter was the one who answered that Jesus is the Son of God. And what does Jesus do? He blesses him, saying that he knows this because the Father in Heaven has revealed it to him. How then would Jesus insult Peter by calling him a pebble?




  

---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Aug/28/2006, 4:12 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
Lauchlin Profile
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


You have your own opinion for what these things say, so I will not argue the first couple of points.

However, the last, about the pebble, I must state something about:

And again, you misconstrue a great lesson - calling him a pebble isn't an insult. I think that some people are just too quick to say, oh he is saying that is small, that must be bad. The fact of the matter is, Peter is one man, amongst many. But calling him a pebble like unto the mustard seed, as I explained, actually states that that small part in the middle of a mass could spread like wildfire to support those who flock to the word. The statement shows that though they may seem small now, in the face of the masses against them, but they will grow and flourish.

I wasn't stating that they were wrong in saying that it was written in Aramaic, I was saying that either way you translate it, it brings forth the same strong message.

Don't be so nitpicky, and start looking for the good in things, please. That one really hurt *rubs cheek*.

Lauchlin

Last edited by Lauchlin, Aug/29/2006, 7:29 am
Aug/29/2006, 7:27 am Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
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Devout Catholic

Registered: 07-2005
Posts: 1370
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


quote:

Don't be so nitpicky, and start looking for the good in things, please. That one really hurt *rubs cheek*.



In all of our discussions Laughlin, I mean no disrespect, nor do I mean to hurt you in any way. But I am called upon to speak the Truth, and sometimes that Truth will hurt.

You claim that I am not looking for the good things. On the contrary, I am. I believe you are painting a picture of good tidings in all situations, which at some point becomes dillusionment. When we read Chapter 6 of Matthew in whole, we can see how your point regarding the mustard seed does not hold up against Gods Word. Up until this point we see the poor rock the Jews have built God's Church upon. We see their unbelief in the SOn of God. And it is to Jesus' apostles that he asks, "Whom do men say that the Son of man is?" When the apostles respond, Jesus asks further, "But whom do you say that I am?" It is Peter (KEPHAS) who responds, "Thou art Christ, the Son of the living God." It is the ROCK of our faith that Jesus is the Son of God. Peter is here declared to be the rock, upon which the church was to be built, with Christ himself being both the principal foundation and founder of the same. It is also important to understand, that Christ, by building his house, that is, his church, upon a ROCK, Jesus has thereby secured it against all storms and floods, like the wise builder. (Matt. 7. 24, 25)
A much better analogy than the mustard seed.

The great lesson that you have misconstrued is that Jesus was building a foundation. One does not build a foundation upon pebbles. Jesus says that the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church. This would mean that His Church would have to be built upon a solid foundation, secured against any storm. Again, the pebble theory just does not work logically in the face of what Jesus proclaims. Not to mention that pebble is an incorrect translation of the Aramaic word KEPHAS. No matter how you cut it, KEPHAS does not mean pebble.

The good Lauchlin, is that Christ built His Church upon fallible man, and then gave Peter the keys to the Kingdom of God, with authority to bind and loose. He built His Church upon a strong foundation which of course lives to this very day.

---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Aug/29/2006, 9:01 am Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
Lauchlin Profile
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


And with that repetition I am done.

Again you come at me with this same rhetoric. Does it hurt, especially in this case, to explore both sides of what it could be, and simply show that whatever way it is translated it is an effective message?

How can you say that speaking of the mustard seed is not a good example? And repeating what you said in the last two things does NOTHING. The fact of the matter is, I am trying to create peace and connection where you, as well as many in this forum, push for division.

It was a rock, not a pebble. -But the pebble is a good example too...- But a pebble doesn't make a good foundation! -Well, looking at it this way, it works... the foundation is faith, not stone.- Yeah, but calling him little is insulting, and ITS A ROCK!

I was trying to make a point, and you turned it into childishness.

But I digress. Convince a fool against his will, he will have his own opinions still. It is my fault for trying to add a bit of strength to something.

Highly disappointed,
Lauchlin
Aug/29/2006, 10:11 am Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
tom7mot Profile
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Registered: 09-2005
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


quote:

The only valid point, really, is the age of the church.



Hold that thought, ok?

If that historical fact isnt enough to demonstrate that the Catholic Church is THE Church founded by Jesus, then what is?

Remember, Jesus PROMISED that His Church would last forever; "the gates of Hell will not prevail against it." Any claim that the same Church somehow failed makes Jesus into a liar. You think the 'baton' was somehow passed on to another church? When? To whom? Show me how that transition was approved by the Holy Spirit. There was a second Pentecost? SHOW ME.

quote:

I think that people concentrate too much on the establishment of the church, and forget about the spirit... the establishment is human, the spirit, obviously, is not.



Since Jesus Himself established the Church, the 'establishment' is DIVINE. The earth-bound members are human. The Church is like its founder: INCARNATE. It is both spiritual and material. And - like its Founder -those two aspects of it are inseparable. It isnt both sometimes, then one or the other at other times.



Aug/29/2006, 10:53 am Link to this post Send Email to tom7mot   Send PM to tom7mot
 
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


Cool your jets there booster.

First of all, I was looking at the site and the way it is presented, not on the validity of the Catholic church.

As for the establishment being divine, I think the survivors of the molestation by Catholic priests would beg to differ. The fact of the matter is, these are humans, faithful or not. They are not Divine, and do not always heed the word of God, regardless of how faithful they are.

Don't waltz in here and give me the third degree. If you want to discuss things, do it reasonably, else, do not respond to my posts.

Lauchlin
Aug/29/2006, 10:59 am Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
tom7mot Profile
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


Ok, lets be reasonable, which requires us to be logical, right? You just finished reading a long tract that shows how/why the Catholic Church is the Church Christ founded. You then took issue with it, claiming it used circular logic. Parallel to this, you agreed that the historical aspect of it was valid.

Well, if the historical aspect of it is valid, then the Catholic Church is not the Church founded by Jesus "because it is." It is the Church founded by Jesus because history proves that it is.

Im not being disrespectful, Laughlin. I honestly want to know what you think about these things. Tony, Michael, HTacianas and I spent a lot of time on imdb trying to get an explanation from Protestants as to their view of the history of the Church. I'd like to know yours.
Aug/29/2006, 11:22 am Link to this post Send Email to tom7mot   Send PM to tom7mot
 
Lauchlin Profile
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


And again,

I was not commenting on the validity of the Church, it was an opinion about the site. The site is based, in part, on circular logic.

As for the historical accuracy, indeed, the Catholic church could very well be the original church of christ, though many more would postulate towards the Greek Orthodox.

That notwithstanding, there are my opinions on history itself, the Bible included. I can't judge the validity because I know that history was written by man, and the Bible, over time, was MOST LIKELY altered by man. Not to mention it is a collection of verse and prophecy from all over that could not possibly be made perfectly straight.

The fact is, the Bible itself is full of contradictions, likely brought forth through the misconceptions of the mortals trying to fathom divine inspiration. Add to that the last 2000 years for the New testament and even more for the old, you get a very difficult picture to follow.

Thus I am not sure what can be proven through history as it is, by its nature, kind of invalid, and convoluted.

Lauchlin

Lauchlin
Aug/29/2006, 11:31 am Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 


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