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"‘Tonight, in the city of David, a Savior is born, 'tis Christ the Lord.'"

"There are not over a hundred people in the United States who hate the Catholic Church. There are millions, however, who hate what they wrongly believe to be the Catholic Church, which is, of course, quite a different thing."
-Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
Placating terrorists, meeting with dictators, compassion for murderers... but no humanity for the unborn... incredible.
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Devout Catholic

Registered: 07-2005
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How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


quote:

Lauchlin, please dont let minor misunderstandings keep you from posting your thoughts. -



I echo this Lauchlin.


---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Aug/29/2006, 5:54 pm Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
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Newbie

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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


And just like that, I feel better.

As most have probably already realized, this happens to me a lot, as I am not necessarily as literally expressive as I could be. So much pain over little misunderstandings which, all in all, can be compared to the division of faiths today, as you can likely imagine. Everyone basically fighting on the same side, and it all beginning with semantics.

Granted, there are still some issues coming up with the so called 'modern christian' that bother me more than anything... hoo boy.

Thanks to both of you for following me through my tirade, and seeing it through to the end.

Much love,
Lauchlin
Aug/30/2006, 7:34 am Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
praying4patience Profile
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Registered: 03-2006
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


quote:

I think the survivors of the molestation by Catholic priests would beg to differ. The fact of the matter is, these are humans, faithful or not. They are not Divine, and do not always heed the word of God, regardless of how faithful they are.



First,let's keep an open mind. If you take the question and say there is NO possibility and your mind is made up probably nothing anyone says is going to be convincing.

We have to admit first that Jesus intended to establish a church-build a church. Yep,He said so.
We have to admit there can only be one.
I don't think you'd disagree there and scripture backs that up.

So we ask;which one?
The Catholic Church claims it is-but then so do a zillion other denominations. Why would anyone want to become part of a denomination if it were NOT the one true Church of Christ? So we all want to find that one true Church or stay with one we believe is founded by Him.
Afterall Jesus is the way,the truth and life.
Why would one accept Jesus and then reject His Church?

Catholics base their claim on several verses of scripture,the early church fathers and the fact that it has exsisted for nearly 2,000 yrs.

You mention priests who committed sin.That's not a reason to reject the claims of the Church.You cannot find a church with 0 sinners.And we know even the Pope is capable of sin and recieves the sacrament of reconciliation.So that's not news and doesn't disqualify the Church.

Jesus said evil would not triumph over His Church.He never promised it wouldn't exsist.

Now let's look at the verses the Church bases her claim on.
Jesus refers to Simon as Simon Bar Jonah when he makes his profession of faith.
It's in the same passage as the passage of rock BUT it's seperate from Jesus first statement.
Simon says to Jesus-thou art the Christ.
He is telling Jesus who He is.
In the verse that follows AFTER the confession of faith Jesus says to Simon:
THOU ART and tells Simon who he is.
THOU ART is very important.
Thou art what? Thou art rock.
Read the verse as we claim Jesus is speaking;
thou art rock and upon this rock I will build my church.
The word is also Kephas,Cephas and it means rock.
But let's go further because in the same verse Jesus gives Peter the keys and the power to bind and loose.Both of these mean AUTHORITY. Odd that it comes up in the same passage.
And then there is even one more passage;Jesus puts Peter in charge of the sheep. That makes Peter what? A shepherd.And who is he made a shepherd by?
Jesus Himself!
Let's not stop there.
Scripture also says there is "one faith,one baptism"
Are the denominations one in faith?
Do all denominations view baptism the same way?
Further;there is scripture that says if there is a dispute between 2(and this is referring to believers)and it can't be settled they are to take it to THE Church.NOT a church.The church.Ok. let's suppose you have a dispute between a Methodist and Bapist and it can't be settled.Which is THE church they are go to? Ok.It states men of the church but it still comes down to the men of THE Church.
Where do they go?
Finally,every denomination outside the Catholic Church was founded by a man in the 16th century or later.
The Catholic Church is close to the apostolic age, close in geography to where the apostles preached(Rome and other areas) and it discerned the inspired books of scripture and its canon as well as defeated the Great Heresies.
So there is a possibility that one of all the other denominations is the church Jesus refers to in the passage that He will build or it's the Catholic Church.Given all the evidence which would you stake your salvation on? Remember one of these is HIS Church. You can't accept Jesus and then reject His Church.
GB!~
p4p

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Sep/4/2006, 3:51 am Link to this post Send Email to praying4patience   Send PM to praying4patience Blog
 
Michael D Profile
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Peacemaker

Registered: 09-2005
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


Nice post, PFP.

---
Nothing by force, but everything by charity.

Ss. Thomas Aquinas and Augustine, pray for us.
Sep/20/2006, 11:30 am Link to this post Send Email to Michael D   Send PM to Michael D
 
Lauchlin Profile
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


Dear friends,

When speaking of The Church, it is like saying that the RC church, as directed by the pope, would be the same with the appearance of an Anti Pope, or that the church would fail to exist if the Anti Christ were to appear and outlaw religion.

It is a very valid statement to say that the RC Church is the original Church of Christ. It was said that when Christ directed his church be made, that the RC Church was the result.

HOWEVER, the fact of the matter is, each church, as founded by another, could be looked upon as the continuation of the true church and the faith. The church itself does not sit within a building, but within the hearts and souls of true believers. A branch possibly spawned by a person appealing to God for greater understanding.

In this, as with everything Godly, in this day and age we can have faith and belief that our denomination is the chosen of Christ, but we cannot know. History is fallible, as is any incarnation of the word of man on such topics.

The question is, do you believe or not?

Lauchlin
Sep/21/2006, 10:08 am Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
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Devout Catholic

Registered: 07-2005
Posts: 1370
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


Lauchlin, when Catholics use the term church with a capital C, it refers to the body of Christ. When church is used with a lower case C, it refers to a place in which Christians gather for worship.

quote:

HOWEVER, the fact of the matter is, each church, as founded by another, could be looked upon as the continuation of the true church and the faith.



You then must ask yourself Lauchlin, if this is correct, why each new 'continuation' of the faith can not agree with the other. Who is right? The Holy Spirit can not be with each founding new faith revealing different things to different people. It would also mean, that at some point, the gates of hell prevailed against Christ's Church, thus making it necessary to restore the Church.

quote:

in this day and age we can have faith and belief that our denomination is the chosen of Christ



I would say that yes, as a Christian, we belong to the only faith that will lead us to salvation.



---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Sep/21/2006, 10:37 am Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
Michael D Profile
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Peacemaker

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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


quote:

HOWEVER, the fact of the matter is, each church, as founded by another, could be looked upon as the continuation of the true church and the faith.



I just absolutely refuse to believe that the Jehovah's Witnesses could legitimately be the true Church. Ain't no way.

---
Nothing by force, but everything by charity.

Ss. Thomas Aquinas and Augustine, pray for us.
Sep/21/2006, 12:25 pm Link to this post Send Email to Michael D   Send PM to Michael D
 
tom7mot Profile
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


With all due respect, Lauchlin:

Your concept of the church is filled with Protestant presuppositions. The fact of the matter is that no Christian believed what you now believe about the church until the Reformation.

quote:

HOWEVER, the fact of the matter is, each church, as founded by another, could be looked upon as the continuation of the true church and the faith.



No, they cant. As Christians we are duty-bound to belong to the Church Christ founded. A church founded by any mere person who lived CENTURIES after Jesus is not and can not be that church.

The Church founded by Jesus is, and should be, easy to find because it will have existed in ALL ages from the time of Jesus until now. There is only ONE Church that meets that description and you have said yourself which Church that is.

I am puzzled over your view of history. History says Jesus was a real person who lived in the first century. History says Jesus claimed to be God. Chrisitans believe Jesus is God based on HISTORICAL information in combination with the grace God gives them to have faith. As a believing Christian, you are not agnostic or skeptical about this. The SAME historical information tells us Jesus founded a visible Church with a visible person to take charge of it after He acscended into Heaven. Jesus said that Church would last forever - the 'gates of Hell will not prevail against it'.

He also said His Church would be like a net cast into the sea. It would hold good fish, and it would hold bad fish. When the Church held many bad fish, the Reformers didnt set an example of obedience and love by trying to make the bad fish become good fish. Instead, they took the easy way out and made their own nets. There was nothing wrong with the original net! They used the bad fish as an excuse to found their own churches. The problem is you cannot argue a bad net from bad fish. Its irrational.

Jesus made it clear that he would found ONE community for his followers and that there would be ONE shepherd leading them. Jesus warned that impostors might want to pretend to be valid ministers but only those who came in by the sheep-gate -- the shepherd himself -- were true ministers of Jesus. At the conclusion of St. John's Gospel, afer His resurrection, Jesus gave this charge to St. Peter:

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."

A second time he said to him, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord; you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."

He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was grieved because he said to him the third time, "Do you love me?" And he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." Jesus said to him, "Feed my sheep." [John 21:15-17]

Jesus did not establish many churches but ONE Church. While we all know that Jesus is the ultimate Good Shepherd, we all also know that he is not here now in the flesh to tend to his Church. But Jesus made provision for that. Before he ascended to the Father, he made St. Peter that ONE shepherd. In essence, St. Peter was made the vicarious replacement (or vicar) of Christ on earth. That ministry has been historically handed down to the Bishops of Rome in the Papacy. No man-made church with its self proclaimed "ministers" can claim such historic precedence or authority. The Bible is clear. There would be only one true Church and it would have one shepherd at its head who would be the successor of St. Peter. Anyone else claiming such authority has no historical basis for doing so.

The Reformers made sure there was no historical continuity with Catholicism because they went out of their way to discard Catholic beliefs they disagreed with and replace them with their own theological speculations. Your beliefs about the invisible church is one of them.

Sep/21/2006, 1:22 pm Link to this post Send Email to tom7mot   Send PM to tom7mot
 
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Newbie

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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


I can definitely understand your contention, everyone. But you have to realize, the reasons for the reformation were many and varied. Some could be likened to today's rush to allow homosexuals to be married in the church. Others however were about disagreements with the interpretation of the Bible itself.

Thus, my outlook may be filled with protestant presuppositions, but yours is filled with overly assured catholic prejudice. The point of this is to discuss possibilities of the true church, and the validity of the claim that the Catholic church is it. I make no claims to be an authority on the topic, but am stating clear facts of logic.

It is logical to think that the church Jesus invisioned was the church of the people, not the church of stone, or the organization of the church as it stands now at the vatican. When you look at it, from the standpoint of many of those who started their own church, they were actually saving people from being drawn down in what they would see as the 'new' faith. From their perspective, they are the ones following the path set out by Jesus. To them, they aren't founding a new church, but saving the old one from the hands of the corrupt and treacherous.

And who is to say that it would be wrong? The fact of the matter is, every sect has things involved with it that shouldn't be there, and reasons for any sane person to shy away.

And by the way, stating that the church founded by Jesus should be easy to find is absolutely absurd. That is like saying that for people who haven't read the Bible or heard of Christ, it should be easy to find the 'true' faith.

And as for the historical record, a habit you seem to have is seeing what you like in history and adding a bit here and there. Whether history actually stated that Jesus claimed to be God or not is irrelevant. You are taking the words of Christ in the Bible as being a historical record, when it is NOT.
To a certain degree it is historically accurate, but this does NOT make it an accurate record. As well, Christ never stated it was going to be a visible church. Christ could have very well meant that he wanted him to continue on teaching the faith Christ had taught, and that he was in charge of THAT.

As well, I don't think any stone church or organization can last forever. I think tht points to the idea of a spiritual church, as opposed to a regimented organization, but that is just me.

As for your example of the net, did you ever look at it from the perspective of the Reformers? Likely not. Maybe that was their attempt to be obedient to God, and to keep his word true. And DO NOT take every fault of every existing 'reform' religion in my face, because I am not speaking of every religion, or any religion. I am speaking of possibilities within people.

I agree, you can't argue a bad net from bad fish, but I would also state that trying to break the interaction of people and spirituality into a fish in a net scenario is oversimplifying the situation. Besides, from their side, the reason they broke away was because they felt that they were trying to stay in the same 'net' while the rest were moving to another one, or making another one.

A note about the sheep... Jesus did not once say house my sheep. He said feed them and guide them, not house them. But again, this can all loop back into my original argument. Many people from the reformation were likely looking at themselves as forwarding the interests of God, for the good of humanity. In all reality, who that believes in the All Mighty, and takes the faith so seriously, woudl turn against Him?

As well, Christ said one community, yes, but who is to say that all of Christendom is not one community, when it comes down to it? They interpret things in different ways, yes, but in essence, they are all moving for the same things.

I think it is more important to be here in the spirit than in the flesh. The flesh of man is corruptible, the spirit of Christ is not.

The fact of the matter is, the beliefs and views of any religious structure are just that: beliefs. Interpretations of the words set forth by people who lived long ago. Who is to say that one interpretation is better than another?

This whole charade is just one more example of why people have trouble speaking of Catholocism with Catholics - they automatically take whatever is said and state that it can have no validity because it is not exactly what is learned under Catholic views. To tell you the truth, it is my strong belief that this rigidity and inability to proactively discuss possibilities is one of the great weaknesses in Christianity, in general, today.

But go figure.
All I can say is 'What is a church without people, without the faithful?'

A building of stone, and no more.

What is a community of the faithful, speaking of Christ in love and harmony, unhindered by walls?

The true church of Christ.

I would say to many and all, cast your semantics to the wind, as all they are doing is dividing the people of the world, and driving hatred and bigotry, as well as religious intolerance.

Lauchlin
Sep/22/2006, 8:20 am Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
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Devout Catholic

Registered: 07-2005
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Re: How Do We Know The Catholic Church Is The Church Which Jesus Christ Founded?


quote:

As well, Christ never stated it was going to be a visible church. Christ could have very well meant that he wanted him to continue on teaching the faith Christ had taught, and that he was in charge of THAT.



If Jesus had meant for Peter to continue teaching the Faith, as Christ taught, there would still be ONE Faith, ONE unity, ONE Church. Also, Christ and Scripture speak very clearly regarding the one VISIBLE Church....(Catholic.com)

Matt. 5:14 - Jesus says a city set on a hill cannot be hidden, and this is in reference to the Church. The Church is not an invisible, ethereal, atmospheric presence, but a single, visible and universal body through the Eucharist. The Church is an extension of the Incarnation.

Matt. 12:25; Mark 3:25; Luke 11:17 - Jesus says a kingdom divided against itself is laid waste and will not stand. This describes Protestantism and the many thousands of denominations that continue to multiply each year.

Matt. 16:18 - Jesus says, "I will build my 'Church' (not churches)." There is only one Church built upon one Rock with one teaching authority, not many different denominations, built upon various pastoral opinions and suggestions.

Matt. 16:19; 18:18 - Jesus gave the apostles binding and loosing authority. But this authority requires a visible Church because "binding and loosing" are visible acts. The Church cannot be invisible, or it cannot bind and loose.

John 10:16 - Jesus says there must only be one flock and one shepherd. This cannot mean many denominations and many pastors, all teaching different doctrines. Those outside the fold must be brought into the Church.

John 17:11,21,23 - Jesus prays that His followers may be perfectly one as He is one with the Father. Jesus' oneness with the Father is perfect. It can never be less. Thus, the oneness Jesus prays for cannot mean the varied divisions of Christianity that have resulted since the Protestant reformation. There is perfect oneness only in the Catholic Church.

John 17:9-26 - Jesus' prayer, of course, is perfectly effective, as evidenced by the miraculous unity of the Catholic Church during her 2,000 year history.

John 17:21 - Jesus states that the visible unity of the Church would be a sign that He was sent by God. This is an extremely important verse. Jesus tells us that the unity of the Church is what bears witness to Him and the reality of who He is and what He came to do for us. There is only one Church that is universally united, and that is the Catholic Church. Only the unity of the Catholic Church truly bears witness to the reality that Jesus Christ was sent by the Father.

Rom. 15:5 - Paul says that we as Christians must live in harmony with one another. But this can only happen if there is one Church with one body of faith. This can only happen by the charity of the Holy Spirit who dwells within the Church.

Rom. 16:17 - Paul warns us to avoid those who create dissensions and difficulties. This includes those who break away from the Church and create one denomination after another. We need to avoid their teaching, and bring them back into the one fold of Christ.

1 Cor. 1:10- Paul prays for no dissensions and disagreements among Christians, being of the same mind and the same judgment. How can Protestant pastors say that they are all of the same mind and the same judgment on matters of faith and morals?

Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - again, the Church does not mean "invisible" unity, because Paul called it the body (not the soul) of Christ. Bodies are visible, and souls are invisible.

Eph. 4:11-14 - God gives members of the Church various gifts in order to attain to the unity of the faith. This unity is only found in the Catholic Church.

Eph. 4:3-5 - we are of one body, one Spirit, one faith and one baptism. This requires doctrinal unity, not 30,000 different denominations.

Eph. 5:25 - the Church is the Bride of Christ. Jesus has only one Bride, not many.

Eph. 5:30; Rom. 12:4-5; 1 Cor. 6:15 - we, as Christians, are one visible body in Christ, not many bodies, many denominations.

Phil. 1:27 - Paul commands that we stand firm in one spirit, with one mind striving side by side for the faith of the Gospel.

Phil. 2:2 - Paul prays that Christians be of the same mind, of one accord. Yet there are 30,000 different "Protest"ant denominations?

Col. 1:18 - Christ is the Head of the one body, the Church. He is not the Head of many bodies or many sects.

1 Tim. 6:4 - Paul warns about those who seek controversy and disputes about words. There must be a universal authority to appeal to who can trace its authority back to Christ.

2 Tim. 2:14 - do not dispute about words which only ruin the hearers. Two-thousand years of doctrinal unity is a sign of Christ's Church.

2 Tim. 4:3 - this is a warning on following our own desires and not the teachings of God. It is not a cafeteria where we pick and choose. We must humble ourselves and accept all of Christ's teachings which He gives us through His Church.

Rev. 7:9 - the heavenly kingdom is filled with those from every nation and from all tribes, peoples and tongues. This is "catholic," which means universal.

1 Peter 3:8 - Peter charges us to have unity of spirit. This is impossible unless there is a central teaching authority given to us by God.

Gen. 12:2-3 - since Abram God said all the families of the earth shall be blessed. This family unity is fulfilled only in the Catholic Church.

Dan. 7:14 - Daniel prophesies that all peoples, nations and languages shall serve His kingdom. Again, this catholicity is only found in the Catholic Church.

1 Cor. 14:33 - God cannot be the author of the Protestant confusion. Only the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church claims and proves to be Christ's Church.


The above Scriptural passages Laughlin speak very clearly on ONE undivided, unified, and VISIBLE CHurch.

quote:

As well, Christ said one community, yes, but who is to say that all of Christendom is not one community, when it comes down to it?



You can not have 30,000 sects believing different things, and say that we are all one community.

quote:

I would say to many and all, cast your semantics to the wind,



These are not simple semantics Laughlin. Christ set forth very clear beliefs for our Salvation. So for example, to deny the salvific effects of Baptism is to deny Christ's Words.

quote:

This whole charade is just one more example of why people have trouble speaking of Catholocism with Catholics - they automatically take whatever is said and state that it can have no validity because it is not exactly what is learned under Catholic views.



If this was a charade Laughlin, none of us would be discussing the Faith with you. No one has taken your thoughts and stated that they are invalid. It appears though that you are interpreting Scripture to fit your beliefs as opposed to adopting to Gods Word. There are many harsh lessons to be learned in Scripture. There is also no such thing as the Catholic view....only Gods view.

quote:

It is logical to think that the church Jesus invisioned was the church of the people, not the church of stone, or the organization of the church as it stands now at the vatican.



Laughlin, the Catholic Church does not denote a place made of stone, brick or morter. It does not describe a man made structure, or any dwelling. If you study the church Fathers, they wrote a lot about the visibility of the Church. This is in contrast to the protestant idea that the Church is just an invisible body of believers, loosely connected to each other by faith in the Bible alone. But St. Paul called the Church the "body" of Christ, not the "soul" of Christ. Bodies are visible and souls are invisible. But note that we can only be the body of Christ if Christ is giving us something physical, that is, His body. So the visibility of the Church is based on the Eucharistic union we have with Jesus Christ. And the Eucharist is the source and summit of the Christian faith.


"Separate a ray of the sun from its body of light, its unity does not allow a division of light; break a branch from a tree,--when broken, it will not be able to bud; cut off the stream from its fountain, and that which is cut off dries up. Thus also the Church, shone over with the light of the Lord, sheds forth her rays over the whole world, yet it is one light which is everywhere diffused, nor is the unity of the body separated. Her fruitful abundance spreads her branches over the whole world. She broadly expands her rivers, liberally flowing, yet her head is one, her source one; and she is one mother, plentiful in the results of fruitfulness: from her womb we are born, by her milk we are nourished, by her spirit we are animated." Cyprian, Unity of the Church, 5 (A.D. 256).

Last edited by SHJIHM, Sep/22/2006, 11:14 am


---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


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