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SHJIHM Profile
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Devout Catholic

Registered: 07-2005
Posts: 1370
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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


Lauchlin, in all this you seem to be forgetting or unwilling to understand that belief in Jesus requires us to follow ALL that He established. Your personal interpretatrion of Scripture can in no way over ride 2000 years of Tradition. These fallible Apostles preached exactly as God taught them. This is why Tradition is so important.

What is illogical is that you wish for us to believe that the Apostles got it wrong, but man, 2000 years later got it right? And this seems logical to you?

God breathed on 12 Apostles and gave them authority to forgive sin. Show me in Scripture where God then said this authority rests with all man kind. It's that simple. No more personal interpretations, hit me with solid Scripture.





---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Oct/26/2006, 10:13 am Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


SHJIHM,

I am not saying that we have the authority to give sins - I am saying that we have the right and power to speak with God ourselves. I am not saying the Apostles got it wrong. I am saying that we may be interpreting their words in the wrong way. Not in ALL cases, but in some.

Again, too much of it doesn't make sense. Is it important to be guided by the Bible, and in many matters by your Priests and Ministers, because of their knowledge of that word? Indubitably. Is that the be all and end all of spiritual well being? Of course not.

If God is loving and understanding, then this cannot stand. If it takes saying that for 2000 years we have been doing overkill, then so be it. Yes, I agree, they are an important part, I would never refute that. I still think that the ultimate authority rests within one's own willingness to appeal to Christ himself.

When Christ performed miracles, why did he say such things as "Your faith has made thee whole".

Lauchlin
Oct/26/2006, 10:27 am Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
tom7mot Profile
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Registered: 09-2005
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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


Well, Lauchlin, we are back to what the nature of the Church is again in order to help explaion why confession to a priest is necessary...

The Church is the Body of Christ, Lauchlin. Literally, not just metaphorically. That is why it is SO important to know which Church in the world today is the one Jesus founded.

You assume that your sins only affect you and God. WRONG. When I sin, I not only sin against God and myself, but against the entire Body of Christ -- the Church. And this is clear in Scripture:

1 Cor 12:24 - 27.

24 But our comely parts have no need: but God hath tempered the body together, giving to that which wanted the more abundant honour,

25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another.

26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it.

27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member.

Thus, if I sin against God, I also sin against His Church. And, since the Church is holy, spotless, and without blemish (Ephesians 5:27), when I sin (mortally) I cut myself off from the Church. I, therefore, need to be reconciled to God WITHIN HIS CHURCH, or I am not reconciled to God at all.

I told you in a much earlier post that the Church is like Jesus: INCARNATE. If you dont believe this, you will never see the sense in confessing to a priest. One can never be sure that God forgives you unless that forgiveness is given to you INCARNATIONALLY by the Church. When you fully appreciate the significance of Christ's Incarnation AND how the Catholic Church is an extension of that Incarnation, then you will recognize the truth of this.

Without recognizing this truth, you reduce your relationship with God to a strictly spiritual level -- that is, to the level of a relationship which ANY Jew could have had with God before Christ's Incarnation. That way of forgiveness is no longer acceptable to God.

'Rugged individualism', which is at the core of your Protestant view on "going straight to God for forgiveness" just doesnt apply when it comes to communion (i.e., common union) with the Body of Christ - the Catholic Church. If you sin against the Body, you must be reconciled to the Body. And you cant do that by 'going straight to God'. You have to go through something He deliberately put between Him and us - His Holy Church which is nothing less than the Body of His Son.


St. John 14:6

6 Jesus saith to him: I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.


Oct/26/2006, 10:58 am Link to this post Send Email to tom7mot   Send PM to tom7mot
 
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Devout Catholic

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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


 emoticon

 emoticon

 emoticon

Thank you Tom. That was wonderful.

---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Oct/26/2006, 11:18 am Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
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Devout Catholic

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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


quote:

I am saying that we have the right and power to speak with God ourselves.



I have never said that we did not have the right to speak personally with God emoticon

quote:

I am not saying the Apostles got it wrong. I am saying that we may be interpreting their words in the wrong way. Not in ALL cases, but in some.



Which is saying that for 2000 years, we have been interpreting Gods Word incorrectly. You are imparting that the Church Fathers, some whom were direct disciples of the Apostles, got it wrong. Yet 2000 years later, man got it right. I am not misunderstanding you.

quote:

Is it important to be guided by the Bible, and in many matters by your Priests and Ministers, because of their knowledge of that word? Indubitably. Is that the be all and end all of spiritual well being? Of course not.



So when we are instructed to bring all matters to the Church, we are to understand that the Apostles were trying to convey something else?

quote:

I still think that the ultimate authority rests within one's own willingness to appeal to Christ himself.



As I said before, enough with the personal interpretations. Hit me with hard Scripture.

quote:

When Christ performed miracles, why did he say such things as "Your faith has made thee whole".



Faith is not all that is needed for our Salvation. Belief in Christ encompasses much more than a simple belief. Even the demons believe in God.

---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Oct/26/2006, 11:26 am Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
Nordiclover Profile
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Registered: 12-2005
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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


Lachlin - Being a Protestant, I do not pretend to be an expert on Catholic theology. However, it is my understanding that the man on a deserted island or an isolated French trapper in pre-Revoultionary War days U.S./Canada could still be forgiven without a priest. How?

The Church recognizes that such situations exist. If one commits a mortal (aka grave) sin and a priest is not available, a Catholic is allowed to make a perfect act of contrition to God and promises to confess to a priest as soon as such is possible. I will let Tony or Michael or Tom explain more about the perfect act of contition. I believe that it basically means that you are deeply sorry for your sin and pledge to do all possible not to repeat said sin. There is a set of words that one is to pray. I do not know how important it is to get the words exact or not. NOTE.... one is not just praying directly to God, but is promising to God that one will go to confession asap.

Obviously, all kinds of exceptions arise in life. A Catholic could get in a car accident and have only seconds to live and might be in a state of mortal sin. A perfect act of contrition is still available to Catholics when a priest is not. Also, venial (lesser) sins need not be confessed to a priest. The only sins that must be confessed to a priest are mortal sins - sins which the Church deems are grevious enough to send one to Hell. Examples of sins which the Church considers are mortal (aka "grave" under new terminology) are: murder, abortion, adultery, incest, fornication, masturbation, use of artificial birth control, use of artificial insemination, missing Mass on any Sunday or Holy Day of obligation without just cause, eating meat on Fridays during Lent, an attack upon the person of the Pope, voting for a Communist, etc. (see the Catholic Encyclopedia for a more complete list of mortal, aka grave, sins.) Unless things have changed, the last two sins have the penalty of automatic excommunication!

There is no doubt that Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive sins. The only question is whether or not Jesus intended said power to be passed on to future generations. Catholics and Orthodox say yes, while Protestants say no. Actually, that is NOT the only question. A second question relates to which specific sins require a priest to be forgiven. Just which sins are mortal or grave sins? That is an entirely different subject, but nevertheless, a very important and related subject.

We Protestants may not always agree with Catholic or Orthodox doctrine. However, we cannot deny that the bulk of the writings of the Church Fathers back up Catholic and Orthodox doctrine more than Protestant doctrine. This is certainly true re: veneration of the saints, praying for the dead, confessing sins to a priest or aloud to the congregation (believe it or not, this was apparently done in the early days of the Church), belief that the Eucharist is indeed the body and blood of Christ, belief that membership in the Church is either totally necessary to salvation or "for all practical purposes" is necessary to salvation, etc. However, there does seem to be two areas that are not quite so certain.

First, we have the dispute between the Orthodox and the Catholics regarding the authority of the Bishop of Rome, aka the Pope. While I concede that MOST of the historical evidence seems to favor the position of Rome, NOT all of the evidence favors the Catholic position. Example: why bother calling Ecumenical Councils and having all Bishops vote and thus allowing a majority of Bishops decide Church doctrine (ex: the Nicene Creed which affirmed the divinity of Christ), if the Bishop of Rome has the final authority?

Second, there is no doubt whatsoever that Marian doctrine has developed over the centuries. It is only a question of how much it has developed. This is a matter for a different thread to address and some of it has already been thoroughly discussed in one thread that I began. I refer you to that thread.

Last edited by Nordiclover, Oct/26/2006, 5:44 pm
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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


It is a horrible thing to say, and I hate myself for saying it, but this discussion has brought me to the fact that I cannot trust the church. I can feel the icy dread moving in. What is a man to do, when he loses faith?

To Tom,

These verses were mentioned, and interpreted. Here is the way I would have interpreted it. I have asked for God's help in seeing your view on what it says, but I just can't.

1 Cor 12:25 - 27.

"25 That there might be no schism in the body; but the members might be mutually careful one for another. "

There must be no division in the body (a house, divided against itself, cannot stand). In light of this, the members must care for one another, and try to assure their well being.

"26 And if one member suffer any thing, all the members suffer with it; or if one member glory, all the members rejoice with it. "

If one person suffers or is hurt, we all feel it as our own. If one person triumphs and is successful, we are all elated.

"27 Now you are the body of Christ, and members of member. "

Following this, through Christ, is the path to be one with him, with all others who do so.

Does this interpretation make any sense to anyone? I simply do not see how this means that we need to confess to a priest.

And as for the church being Incarnate, as is Jesus, this doesn't imply that you need a Priest to tell you you are forgiven. Whether a priest is necessary in the process or not, you shouldn't need someone to tell you you are forgiven - your faith should tell you you are, because you have asked for forgiveness of Christ.

And in case you didn't realize, when people speak of the Trinity, they speak of three beings in one unique whole. From that side, when I am speaking of talking to God, or Christ, it means the same to me.

As well, how is communion with other faithful people, supplemented by private prayer, barring me from a more advanced relationship with God?

To SHJIHM,

There is a large difference between Faith and Belief. Maybe not so large as the difference between having faith and knowing, but it is there.

Lauchlin
Oct/27/2006, 10:59 am Link to this post Send Email to Lauchlin   Send PM to Lauchlin
 
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Devout Catholic

Registered: 07-2005
Posts: 1370
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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


quote:

I simply do not see how this means that we need to confess to a priest.



This is understandable as you do not believe the authority to forgive sins was passed down to the apostles succesors.

quote:

I can feel the icy dread moving in. What is a man to do, when he loses faith?



I just don't understand this statement. Are you looking for folks to just agree with your assessments? Again, we understand your views Lauchlin, we just do not agree with them.

quote:

Whether a priest is necessary in the process or not, you shouldn't need someone to tell you you are forgiven.



You agree that Jesus gave the authority to forgive sins to the Apostles. You agree that in order for the Apostles to forgive sins, they needed to have sins CONFESSED to them. Where does Scripture say this authority ended? Who gave Paul the Authority to forgive sins? If the plan for reconcilaition, which Paul specifically says was given to the Apostles, was changed, when did it change? Under whose authority? Where in Scripture can we find this change? For 2000 years we have been doing exactly as the Apostles did. As the Church Fathes did. I want to understand your logic, but you have provided us nothing from Scripture as evidence.

quote:

And as for the church being Incarnate, as is Jesus, this doesn't imply that you need a Priest to tell you you are forgiven.



How did Jesus forgive those who He came in contact with? He forgave them Incarnately. In the flesh, as the Son of Man, and NOT as God. Why didn't Jesus teach us to ask His Father for forgivness? When he charged the Apostles to continue His mission, after giving them authority to forgive sins, why would Jesus' plan for reconciliation not be part of that mission?

The issue is Lauchlin that your points, as valid as they are make little sense in light of SCRIPTURE.

quote:


There is a large difference between Faith and Belief



Haveing Faith in Christ means to have belief in everything He taught and died for.



---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Oct/27/2006, 11:19 am Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
tom7mot Profile
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Registered: 09-2005
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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


Tony has answered most of your points, but I will address this one:

quote:

As well, how is communion with other faithful people, supplemented by private prayer, barring me from a more advanced relationship with God?



It doesnt.

However, your relationship is not only with God in Heaven, it is ALSO with the Body of Christ HERE ON EARTH. Thats what an INCARNATE Church is: God - The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit in Heaven with all the saints and angels - AND all the human members right here, right now. God is spiritual, you can talk to Him in your prayers and He'll hear you...but the rest of us lowly humans CAN NOT. When you sin, you injure ALL of us. Are you going to book a flight around the world and apologize to each of us in person? For you to be reconciled to the Body, ALL parts of the body have to be addressed. In the confessional, the priest represents, via the authority of God, ALL the Body: the spiritual AND the physical. When you short-circuit the process and go directly to God, you unwittingly deny that the Church is the Body of Christ - an extension of His very Incarnation based on the "one flesh" relationship between Christ and His Bride and a man and his wife. (Ephesians 5:25-32).

You think praying directly to God for forgiveness is a 'more advanced relationship' than going to a priest. Ok, I see, the spiritual is superior to the physical, right? Well, not always. Why? Because if God COMMANDS us to go to a priest for forgiveness, then that is the way we are obliged to do it, no matter HOW MUCH we think we can do it on our own.

Lauchlin, can you baptize yourself? Or does it have to be done by someone in the Church? Can you just go to the supermarket and buy a loaf of bread and some red wine, pray to God directly that they become the body and blood of Jesus (in whatever way you understand it) consume them, and consider that to be communion? Or, do you go to Church for that too?

In the Bible, it is THE CHURCH that received the Holy Spirit and it is THE CHURCH that is commissioned to Baptize all nations for the forgiveness of sins. If you cannot be Baptized without the Church, if you cant receive communion without the Church, then how can you return to God in repentance without the Church??


Confession to a priest is something that God DELIBERATELY put between us and Him when we need to have our sins forgiven. You may not think the authority to forgive was passed down to priests of the Church beyond the Apostles, but ALL of the early Christians disagree with you!

Confession is part of the Deposit of Faith handed down to us from the Apostles, as seen in the writings of the early Christian Fathers and ecclesiastical writers:

ORIGEN (c. 244 AD)
In addition to these [kinds of forgiveness of sins], albeit hard and laborious: the remission of sins THROUGH PENANCE...when he [the sinner] does not shrink from DECLARING HIS SIN TO A PRIEST OF THE LORD AND FROM SEEKING MEDICINE....In this way there is fulfilled that too, which the Apostle James says: "If, then, there is anyone sick, let him call the PRESBYTERS [where we get PRIESTS] of the Church, and let them impose hands upon him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and if he be in SINS, THEY SHALL BE FORGIVEN HIM [James 5:14-15; cf. John 20:21-23]." (Hom on Leviticus 2:4)

CYPRIAN OF CARTHAGE (c. 250 AD)
Of how much greater faith and salutary fear are they who...CONFESS THEIR SINS TO THE PRIESTS OF GOD in a straightforward manner and in sorrow, making an open declaration of conscience....Indeed, he but sins the more if, thinking that God is like man, he believes that he can escape the punishment of his crime by not openly admitting his crime....I beseech you, brethren, LET EVERYONE WHO HAS SINNED CONFESS HIS SIN while he is still in this world, while his confession is still admissible, WHILE THE SATISFACTION AND REMISSION MADE THROUGH THE PRIEST ARE STILL PLEASING BEFORE THE LORD. (The Lapsed 28)

JOHN CHRYSOSTOM (c. 387 AD)
Priests have received a power which God has given neither to angels nor to archangels. It was said to them: "Whatsoever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatsoever you shall loose, shall be loosed" [Matt 18:18]. Temporal rulers have indeed the power of binding; but they can only bind the body. Priests, in contrast, can bind with a bond which pertains to the soul itself and transcends the very heavens. Did [God] not give them all the powers of heaven? "Whose sins you shall forgive," he says, "they are forgiven them; whose sins you shall retain, they are retained" [John 20:23]. What greater power is there than this? The Father has given all judgment to the Son. And now I see the Son placing all this power in the hands of men [cf. Matt 9:8; 10:40; John 20:21]. (The Priesthood 3:5)

AUGUSTINE (c. 395 AD)
When you shall have been baptized, keep to a good life in the commandments of God so that you may preserve your baptism to the very end. I do not tell you that you will live here without sin, but they are venial sins which this life is never without. Baptism was instituted for all sins. For light sins, without which we cannot live, prayer was instituted....But do not commit those sins on account of which you would have to be separated from the body of Christ. Perish the thought! For those whom you see doing penance have committed crimes, either adultery or some other enormities. That is why they are doing penance. If their sins were light, daily prayer would suffice to blot them out....In the Church, therefore, there are three ways in which sins are forgiven: in baptisms, in prayer, and in the greater humility of penance. (Sermon to Catechumens on the Creed 7:15; 8:16).




Last edited by tom7mot, Oct/27/2006, 3:13 pm
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nattyjk Profile
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Re: Misconceptions of Catholocism


Tom, my friend, I don't think I have ever read a more beautiful explanation of the sacrament of Confession. Thank you.

~ Natalie



---
Holy cow, it's a girl!!!
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