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-Bishop Fulton J. Sheen
Placating terrorists, meeting with dictators, compassion for murderers... but no humanity for the unborn... incredible.
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Wbagot1 Profile
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Registered: 01-2006
Posts: 38
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The Pope's Comments and the Reaction of the Islamic World


Since this is a big story right now, I'm curious what people on this board might think. Personally, I find the media has made Islam the one religion that you are not allowed to question in any way. Islam certainly has that belief about itself, and it would be very dangerous to ever do so in public in an Islamic country, but the idea that open societies such as ours would adopt such a standard is ludicrous.

Personally I find Islam as needing to be protected because its history and source text are very vulnerable. Over the years of having interactions with various people over the internet, I've found that the group that is the most ignorant of any historical realities are Islamic people living in non-western nations. More than one has told me that the first contact between Islam and Christianity was when the Christians launched the Crusades. I'd have to imagine that's what they are being taught in their nations. The sad part is based on what is allowed to be discussed in our own nation, many people here might believe that as well.

Peace,

Bill

Last edited by Wbagot1, Sep/17/2006, 4:08 am
Sep/17/2006, 4:06 am Link to this post Send Email to Wbagot1   Send PM to Wbagot1
 
SHJIHM Profile
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Devout Catholic

Registered: 07-2005
Posts: 1370
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Bill, I for one stand beside the Holy Father. Althogh I loved John Paul, I do believe JPII compromised Christianity for the sake of peace. We will NOT see this from Pope Benedict. His message was loud and clear. Violence in the name of religion is not acceptable. Mohammed was a military figure. Islam is NOT a religion of peace. There is only peace when one is in an islamic state. Otherwise, muslims are told to kill the infidel. And the mulsim who tells you this is wrong, is only ignorant of his own 'holy' book. I have long studied islam, as have the great theolgions of the Catholic Church.

I for one am happy that the Pope has stood up in the face of islam.

---
"My Sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.


Sep/17/2006, 10:32 am Link to this post Send Email to SHJIHM   Send PM to SHJIHM
 
AdMajoremDeiGloriam Profile
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Cardinal

Registered: 08-2005
Posts: 1515
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The Pope's Comments and the Reaction of the Islamic World


'I do believe JPII compromised Christianity for the sake of peace."

Obviously.

"And the mulsim who tells you this is wrong, is only ignorant of his own 'holy' book. "

Just look at the life of Muhammad - killing and conquering others .

"I for one am happy that the Pope has stood up in the face of islam."

That was planned - to wake up the West , and to block Turkey from entering EU .
Sep/18/2006, 2:03 am Link to this post Send Email to AdMajoremDeiGloriam   Send PM to AdMajoremDeiGloriam
 
Wbagot1 Profile
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Registered: 01-2006
Posts: 38
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The Pope's Comments and the Reaction of the Islamic World


Tony,

Talking about the Islamic Scriptures reminds me of a friend of mine. After 9/11 when we were inundated with "Islam is a religion of love" she decided to read the Koran. I told her that the idea being put forth that the Koran was a book of love that is misunderstood doesn't match much of the writing, but she told me I was being intolerant. A month later I asked her how her readings went and she told me she only got through the first 100 to 150 pages before putting it down because that was the most vile book she had ever read and it pained her to see the things put into God's mouth. I think the Emperor who the Pope quoted pretty much had it right. If Mohammed added something positive that wasn't already there, I'd like to know what it is. All changes that I see detract from the love message of the Gospel that we have been given.

Peace,

Bill
Sep/18/2006, 3:35 am Link to this post Send Email to Wbagot1   Send PM to Wbagot1
 
Michael D Profile
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Peacemaker

Registered: 09-2005
Posts: 2111
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Re: The Pope's Comments and the Reaction of the Islamic World


This is an interesting story because it is being whipped up on the Muslim side to create feelings of hatred for Catholicism. I do not know exactly how the story was reported in the Middle East but I am sure their press typically slants the stories too.

And at all plays into the hands of those who want to expand the war to Iran.

---
Nothing by force, but everything by charity.

Ss. Thomas Aquinas and Augustine, pray for us.
Sep/19/2006, 9:43 am Link to this post Send Email to Michael D   Send PM to Michael D
 
AdMajoremDeiGloriam Profile
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Cardinal

Registered: 08-2005
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The Pope's Comments and the Reaction of the Islamic World


Do you think war with Iran is a bad thing ?
Sep/20/2006, 2:12 am Link to this post Send Email to AdMajoremDeiGloriam   Send PM to AdMajoremDeiGloriam
 
Michael D Profile
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Peacemaker

Registered: 09-2005
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Re: The Pope's Comments and the Reaction of the Islamic World


quote:

Do you think war with Iran is a bad thing ?



We will lose.

---
Nothing by force, but everything by charity.

Ss. Thomas Aquinas and Augustine, pray for us.
Sep/20/2006, 9:55 am Link to this post Send Email to Michael D   Send PM to Michael D
 
Michael D Profile
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Peacemaker

Registered: 09-2005
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Re: The Pope's Comments and the Reaction of the Islamic World


Here is some info on how the Pope's remarks were misreported.

quote:

Apologize for what?


The BBC appears to have been quickest off the mark, to send around the world in many languages, including Arabic, Turkish, Farsi, Urdu, and Malay, word that the Pope had insulted the Prophet of Islam, during an address in Bavaria.

He had not, of course. Pope Benedict XVI had instead quoted, carefully and without approval, remarks by the learned 14th-century Byzantine emperor, Manuel II Palaeologus, in debate with a 14th-century learned Persian. He was trying to provide a little historical depth to present controversies about the meaning of "jihad", and his very point was that on their own respective theological terms, Muslims and Christians were bound to talk past each other today, in the same ways as they did seven centuries ago. But in the most conscientious media reports I have seen, even the Byzantine emperor is quoted out of context.

Here is the point Pope Benedict was making, also in the words of that learned Byzantine emperor, speaking on the eve of one of the many sieges of Constantinople:

"God is not pleased by blood, and not acting reasonably is contrary to God's nature. Faith is born of the soul, not the body. Whoever would lead someone to faith needs the ability to speak well and to reason properly, without violence and threats. ... To convince a reasonable soul, one does not need a strong arm, or weapons of any kind, or any other means of threatening a person with death."

It is a point the Greek-educated and Christian emperor takes as self-evident, but which is not self-evident to a theology that holds God entirely beyond human reason, and says He may command whatever He commands, including conversion by force should He so will. As the Pope said, it is a conflict that stabs us once again today: Does God act with "logos"? (This is the Greek word for "reason" as well as "word") How do we defend this very Catholic (and Orthodox) idea outside the Church, where our own theological assumptions are not shared?

This was not a crude anti-Islamic polemic; nor was it so at the end of the 14th century. It was a quest for peace and amity, then as now.

By turning the story back-to-front, so that what’s promised in the lead -- a crude attack on Islam -- is quietly withdrawn much later in the text, the BBC journalists were having a little mischief. The kind of mischief that is likely to end with Catholic priests and faithful butchered around the Muslim world. Either the writers were so jaw-droppingly ignorant, they did not realize this is what they were abetting (always a possibility with the postmodern journalist), or the malice was intended. There is no third possibility.

From the start, the BBC’s reports said the Pope would “face criticism from Muslim leaders” -- in the present tense. This is a form of dishonesty that has become common in journalism today. The flagrantly biased reporter, feigning objectivity, spices his story by just guessing what a man’s enemies will say, even before they have spoken.

While I don’t mean to pick especially on the BBC, when other mainstream media are often as culpable, they are worth singling out here to show the amount of sheer, murderous evil of which this taxpayer-funded network is capable. As I write, the BBC website has just posted an “interpretive” piece by their religious affairs correspondent, one Rahul Tandon. He does an unconscionably brief review of publicity the Pope had previously received, as Cardinal Ratzinger and since his elevation, touching upon Islam. By extracting the context from each item on his list, Mr Tandon creates the utterly false impression that the Pope is, as the media persistently dub him, “God’s Rottweiler”, with an especially vicious hate-on for Muslims.

Now watch Mr Tandon pose as the objective reporter:

“However, since his consecration, Pope Benedict has surprised many with his attempts to improve dialogue with the Muslim world. He is due to visit Turkey in November as part of that process.

“But there have been signs of his earlier views.”

Note the dripping condescension in the trailing line, as if the Pope is barely able to contain himself. But more significantly, note the implicit assertion that the views of Cardinal Ratzinger changed when he became Pope. This is not true, but insinuated as if it were fact.

From now on, the reporting will be about the Muslim rage, and whether the Vatican has apologized yet. That is the “drama” the media will seek to capture -- the drama of the cockfight -- because they know no better kind. That the Pope said nothing intrinsically objectionable will be overlooked, in deference to the Muslim rage, just as the media hid the Danish cartoons from their viewers -- preventing them from discovering how mild they were.

But again: even without the BBC doing the devil’s work, with unbecoming enthusiasm, the story could have carried to the Muslim world, where a new wave of anti-Western, and specifically anti-Christian hysteria is now rising, similar to what was enhanced by tendentious misreporting after the Danish controversy. There are enough other agents provocateurs both in my business and outside it; and surely, enough radical Muslims digging for grievances to extend their own power.

The manufacture of grievances, to justify strident demands for their redress, is the tyrant’s stock-in-trade. It is what took Adolf Hitler to power over the Germans, and it is what today’s Islamic fanatics depend upon to control the Muslims, and push them towards an apocalyptic jihad against the West. Moreover, the basic tactic of bullying is to demand apologies for exaggerated or imaginary offences. It is to make the decent kneel before the indecent.

Already the parliament of Pakistan has voted unanimously to condemn the Pope, without showing the patience or courtesy to find out what he actually said. This showed the power of the fanatics in Pakistan, for once one of them had tabled the lying motion, not one paliamentarian had the courage to resist it. It is worth adding, that in expressing their blind rage thus, they were illustrating not the Pope’s, but the Byzantine emperor’s caricature of Islam from 1391.

It is cowardly to apologize for imaginary transgressions. Let those who demand the apologies stick it.





Found at this link.


---
Nothing by force, but everything by charity.

Ss. Thomas Aquinas and Augustine, pray for us.
Sep/20/2006, 10:42 am Link to this post Send Email to Michael D   Send PM to Michael D
 
AdMajoremDeiGloriam Profile
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Cardinal

Registered: 08-2005
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The Pope's Comments and the Reaction of the Islamic World


'We will lose."

How ? We can ally with Saudi Arabia and simply "remove" their nuclear research , without being involved in a half-baked occupation . Of course , Iran will activate Hizbullah and the Mahdi Army - but we have a powerful ally - Israel . In the worst case , that may buy us a few years .
Sep/21/2006, 1:44 am Link to this post Send Email to AdMajoremDeiGloriam   Send PM to AdMajoremDeiGloriam
 
Michael D Profile
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Peacemaker

Registered: 09-2005
Posts: 2111
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Re: The Pope's Comments and the Reaction of the Islamic World


The military reality is not good.

Much of our army is in Iraq hiding in the Green Zone venturing out in convoys from time to time. They are not in a tenable offensive or even defensive posture. The situations in Iraq and Afghanistan are both growing worse. We are much the same position as the Soviets were in Afghanistan before they were forced to withdraw.

If war with Iran is begun, it can be an air war with conventional bombs. It will not be successful in decapitating the Iranian government or permanently halting the Iranian nuclear program. Plus, and this is the big thing, it will give the Iranian army a reason to move into Iraq. With the U.S. army facing a rebellious poplulation behind them and a fresh army several times their size coming at them from across the border they will likely be rolled up in a very short time. The remnants will limp back like Napoleon from Moscow or Hitler from Stalingrad. Unless of course the U.S. went nuclear.

If we take the conflict nuclear, we will also lose in the long run though a lot more people will die. AD, much like Stalin's military before WWII, Rumsfeld has driven out all the generals who were competent and replaced them with yesmen. Our leadership is ideological and lacks the ability to even realistically assess the situation and act according to rational principles. They still claim they are winning in Iraq. They even believe that Israel won in southern Lebanon despite being routed by a few thousand infantrymen and some primitive rocket launchers.

No, military action will result in clear defeat. And shudder for the world when that happens.

---
Nothing by force, but everything by charity.

Ss. Thomas Aquinas and Augustine, pray for us.
Sep/21/2006, 7:00 am Link to this post Send Email to Michael D   Send PM to Michael D
 


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